#320: How to Be a Happy Lawyer with Special Guest Nancy Cogar

How to Be a Happy Lawyer with Special Guest Nancy Cogar

Dina Cataldo (00:00:00):

Today we have a fabulous episode with a client of mine, who is someone who has worked with me for four years. We talk about an expanse of topics, everything from mindset around business, around opposing counsel who are being difficult at trial, to growing her practice in a way that feels good to time management, to relationships. I mean, we talk about everything in this episode. She really offers a lot of wisdom. So I want to offer to you that if you're not driving that, you grab a notepad and a pen, because Nancy really offers many mindsets how she has shifted over the years to create the life that she wants. And in addition to those mindsets, she's also sharing with you actionable tips. How do you handle interruptions? How do you grow your practice with less stress? These are things that you can do when you implement them. And she gives you some building blocks to start from. So grab that note, paper and pen if you can. And if you're listening to this in your car, that's okay. Come back to it and re-listen to it, because she really offers a lot of nuggets. So let's just jump in.

Dina Cataldo (00:02:13):

Hello. So I have a special treat for you today. I have my friend, my client, estate elder, law attorney extraordinaire, Nancy Koger, here on Be a Better Lawyer podcast. I'm so excited 'cause we have had an episode here together, but it's been a couple years, and so I think it has long overdue for me to have another conversation with Nancy, because you've gotta hear what she's up to. She's up to some amazing things. And I want you to really, I know we're gonna have some really solid takeaways for you so that you can implement these things too. She has made some amazing changes to her life, to her business, and really, she's, she's doing some amazing things in the world, really helping a lot of people. And I know this episode is going to inspire you. So Nancy, I know I've just kind of introduced you a little bit, but can you tell everybody a little bit about where you are, what you do for people who may not have listened to that other episode?

Nancy Cogar (00:03:28):

Sure. And, and just for purposes, I, Dina you and I have known each other for going on four years now, and Oh, yes. And it started listening to the podcast, and then I made the scary first step to connect out. And I am so glad that I did. So if there are any lawyers out there that are in that position, I four years down the road here, encourage you to take that first step because you have made such a tremendous difference in my life, in my practice, and also in how I'm able to serve people. And those people are not, don't mean this in any way as to me, but because of me being present and available for them, they are being helped. And then they're bringing their friends to be helped. Yeah. And that says it all.

Dina Cataldo (00:04:24):

Yeah. I I, and I do wanna say this, because of the work you've done on yourself, you are, you have now have the capacity to help more people. And you know, for those of you listening, I just got finished doing an episode with Nancy on her podcast called Boomer Time, which you started up, what, like four months ago

Nancy Cogar (00:04:48):

In December, man.

Dina Cataldo (00:04:50):

Yes. Oh my gosh. Episode

Nancy Cogar (00:04:52):

Six 30.

Dina Cataldo (00:04:54):

Yeah. So if you wanna listen to our episode together, we talk about some, some pretty personal stuff. You can go to Boomer Time and you can listen to her episode. I don't know when your episode is coming out.

Nancy Cogar (00:05:08):

I think next week or week after.

Dina Cataldo (00:05:12):

Perfect. Because that's a, that'll be about real time when this episode is coming out. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that's perfect. Okay, good. Okay. So, well, thank you for that. And honestly, I was kind of flipping through some of the notes from four years ago, and I was looking at like, wow, the shifts you have been able to make to manage your mind and decide intentionally what you wanted and go after it, have been phenomenal.

Nancy Cogar (00:05:43):

Appreciate that.

Dina Cataldo (00:05:44):

I mean, it, it really, it, it's so clear when I see the notes 'cause it really just tells me like, wow, those aren't even things that you think about anymore. Those are not even on your mind anymore. How much time do you think you got back just not thinking about all the junk that you used to think about before? <Laugh>

Nancy Cogar (00:06:05):

<Laugh>, I don't even recognize myself anymore. Ah. You know, I'll, I'll, I'm a very strange lawyer folks, so I know I'm talking to lawyers. I will go around the office singing Broadway show tunes,

Dina Cataldo (00:06:20):

<Laugh>

Nancy Cogar (00:06:21):

And with a smile on my face that some of my other partners that have not experienced mindset are wondering what the heck is wrong with that person?

Dina Cataldo (00:06:30):

Oh my God, why is she so happy? She's a lawyer, she shouldn't be happy. Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Cogar (00:06:34):

<Affirmative>. And I'm still making six figures and, you know, expanding my business. And so

Dina Cataldo (00:06:40):

<Laugh> and you keep growing not because you are grumpy <laugh>, but because you're a cheerful lawyer now. Yeah. But things weren't

Nancy Cogar (00:06:51):

Always, I guess what people actually like that.

Dina Cataldo (00:06:53):

Right, right. But you weren't, you weren't always that way. So would you mind kind of sharing with us the how, who you were before coaching? Do you kind of remember that version of Nancy?

Nancy Cogar (00:07:05):

Yeah, yeah. And I have total empathy for that Nancy. Mm-Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (00:07:10):

<Affirmative>. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:07:12):

So I don't look at her as judgmental. I, I look at her with compassion.

Dina Cataldo (00:07:19):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:07:20):

Because that Nancy is still this Nancy, but I remove some things, some shackles, I'd like to say, some stinking thinking, <laugh> and <laugh>. And I just allowed myself to be experience life and do the things that I wanna do my way. You know, I'm, I'm unique. All those people out there are unique. You can't be me. I can't be you. But you were designed that way for a reason, and you have something to give back. So unless you get rid of all the garbage, you're gonna be carrying around that garbage and you're not gonna be allowed able to do what you really should be doing. And I think that's the biggest piece is Nancy, four years ago was so caught up in the busyness of practice and that that was never enough. And that I wasn't able to have the confidence to say, you know what, somebody calls and say, I, I'm really not the best person to help you. I just do it.

Dina Cataldo (00:08:40):

Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Cogar (00:08:40):

<Affirmative>. And then I didn't get any sleep. You know, I didn't eat right. I wouldn't eat, I didn't exercise. I was worried all weekend long so that I didn't get any mental rest and didn't allow myself to have any fun because lawyers don't have fun. No. So you can imagine why I was grouchy Nancy. And I still had all these dreams and aspirations and visions of what I thought I could do. But I wasn't allowing myself to, you know, occupy that space. Yeah. You know what I mean? So once we cleared out all the old stuff, you know, it made room for new stuff. And, and I think it's okay to say, you know, I want this and I don't know how to get there, but I can figure it out or I can ask for help.

Dina Cataldo (00:09:45):

Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Cogar (00:09:45):

<Affirmative>. And that's a big piece of it too. I had very specific dreams as you know some of them I'm still working on. That's okay. But let's take the podcast for instance. That was a really specific thing that I had for, I don't know, probably two years or more. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But I was so kind of paralyzed about how do I start it and what do I do when I do start it? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that it just didn't happen. But then eventually I asked for help, I started to make time for it. <Laugh>, that's a big thing. And now, as I mentioned, I'm on my almost 30 30th episode, so I celebrate that. And, and in that I'm having the time of my life and I'm also helping all kinds of people in the community so that that's the best piece of it all. And it's leading to new opportunities. So yeah. You know, that's just the way life works. But if I had just said, nah, I can't do that. I'm too busy that that's, you know, I need to choose. I need to choose what I do. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And you know, I'd be stuck behind my desk, not not experiencing some of the things that I think I'm gifted in. Just trying to fit into a cookie cutter role. And I don't think, I don't, I don't think that works for anybody.

Dina Cataldo (00:11:25):

No. You know. No. And, and something you said is so important is when you allowed yourself to really want things, was when you started making time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> for yourself and cleaning some things up. Right. And, and that's what I always look at with my clients, is like, okay, once we get the time set, once we figure out, okay, what's going on here? How can we clean some of this up mentally? And we'll, we could talk about mindset and what that means to you and what you did. But once we clean some of that up, then it's like, oh my gosh, this whole world opens up. And one of the things I know from talking to a gajillion lawyers is that it's so difficult for us to articulate what it is we want. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And to really say, no, I want this, even though like, part of our brain says it's not possible, or I don't know how, and there's like all these obstacles.

Dina Cataldo (00:12:22):

I still want this, I desire this. And I truly believe that that desire is placed inside of us for a reason. Because it is the version of us we are meant to evolve into. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it is the version of us that is going to have the biggest impact on changing the world on the, whether it's for ourselves and our own personal evolution for just being the person we are meant to be, for our family, for our friends. But I always believe there's a bigger purpose for it. And I'm curious for you. Yeah. And I'm curious for you, what was your experience of finally allowing yourself to ask for what you want and then make it happen? What was your experience of like that maybe that first time of recognizing, oh, I'm not asking for what I want, or I'm not allowing myself to, to ask for what I want?

Nancy Cogar (00:13:19):

Well, a couple things come to my mind. You know, if I don't ask, time's gonna go by anyway. Right? So if I really want it, I better ask for it. And secondly, if I ask for it, I try it and it doesn't work out. Huh. At least I tried, right? Mm-Hmm. And there's experiences and memories in that. I got a lot of things that I've done in my life that I don't do anymore. I don't consider them failures. I consider them experiences, you know? Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (00:13:54):

Yeah. I think that's really important. Your mindset is so different than what I think most lawyers come out of law school with, which is if I try something and I fail at it, I'm a failure. And they never try it again. Oh, that didn't work. I couldn't, I couldn't. For instance. 'cause I'll, I'll bring this up just as a for instance, because I know you and I at one point, we got you from working six days a week to four days a week. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so you eventually decided that that Friday was gonna be devoted to your podcast and business building, but for a while you were working four days a week. But a lot of lawyers can't get their brain to, oh, I can decide to work four days a week, because their brain says, well, I tried to do that one week and it didn't work. Or, I've tried multiple times and it just doesn't work. And we get into this, oh, I can't do it. I'm a failure. Or it doesn't matter. I can't do it. It's just not working. Versus I'm gonna figure out how to make it work. It's a very different mindset because when you start to think, how can I figure out how to make this work? Versus just settling for what always has been, you actually start to change your reality. What's your experience with that?

Nancy Cogar (00:15:04):

Well, I think that is so true. And I think it'd be, you know, if you are able to bust through some of those things, I think it'll just make you a better advocate for people. Because you need to think creatively. You know, not ev all circumstances are different, but I I, for some reason in my mind, I thought about a baby walking. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And babies, when they learn to walk, fall down all the time. Yeah. And we think it's so cute. But when we become adults, if we fall down one time, you know, we think that's it. That's,

Dina Cataldo (00:15:41):

It's over,

Nancy Cogar (00:15:41):

It's over. <Laugh>. <Laugh>. I'm a failure

Dina Cataldo (00:15:44):

<Laugh>. So I guess I'm not walking today.

Nancy Cogar (00:15:47):

Yeah. No. Well,

Dina Cataldo (00:15:49):

<Laugh>,

Nancy Cogar (00:15:52):

I mean, yeah. You know it, I don't know if anybody would identify with that, but, you know, you can't sit down. I always, I had this ridiculous thought, and it's ridiculous for this reason that I always wanna be able to play the piano. I didn't wanna invest the time in playing the piano. I didn't wanna learn scales. I didn't wanna do any of that. So chances of learning how to play the piano are slim to none. But I had this thought in my head that I wanna go to a party and just sit down and go on a piano and just play this masterful song. Sure. That's not gonna happen. Just like if you have some high aspiration, a dream, it's not gonna happen overnight. And there're gonna be things that don't work and do work. So that's just part of the process. Right. You go to court sometimes the judge denies your request and sometimes he or she grants it and there's nothing like getting what you asked for in court.

Dina Cataldo (00:16:56):

Yeah. But you're not always gonna get it.

Nancy Cogar (00:16:58):

No,

Dina Cataldo (00:16:58):

No,

Nancy Cogar (00:16:59):

No. And you can't argue with the judge. Well, I guess you could, but

Dina Cataldo (00:17:02):

Well, you could, but they'd probably throw you out. Yeah. <laugh>. So, but, but one thing that came to mind is when you said that about the piano, is oftentimes we want the result without doing the work. Right. And so we want to have, I mean, it's the same thing, right? It's, we want the result, but we don't wanna put in the work. So, right. We want to have an easier life. We wanna feel good, we wanna have good relationships, we want to walk through life, everything being very easy. But then we don't do the work to sit down to do the calendar. And that's just, that's just the reality. If you don't sit down and, and do the work, do the scale, so to speak, you're not gonna get the result. But we're gonna, like, if you were really committed to learning the piano, right?

Dina Cataldo (00:17:45):

Let's, you know, 'cause you were really committed to doing the podcast, and we know that because you created it, even though there were two years where you're like, I don't really want to do these things. <Laugh>, we're always gonna have times when we don't want to do things in our business, in our personal life. You know, we won't wanna sit down and do the calendar. We won't wanna sit down and think about, okay, what do I need to do this week? We won't wanna do it. Yesterday. I'm, I'm doing this I'm doing a completely different eating. It's a ketogenic eating now and dear. It's my new way of eating. It's totally different. And I do one day fasts every week. And so I actually have to plan my food. And so it's something that I'm not yet used to thinking about regularly, and it takes a lot more time.

Dina Cataldo (00:18:34):

And I don't really enjoy it. It's not my favorite thing. But because I want the result, which is, you know, my health goals, I need to sit down and do this work figuring out macros, which I never thought I would ever do in my life. So <laugh> now it's like, okay, I'm figuring out macros so that I can get the result that I want. And yes, I don't want to do this, but I do want to do this. And so I talk myself through doing the things I don't want to do so that I can get the result that I want. Yes. Can you tell me what that looks like in your practice? Are there things you don't wanna do?

Nancy Cogar (00:19:19):

Definitely

Dina Cataldo (00:19:21):

<Laugh>. Tell me more. <Laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (00:19:28):

Well, you know, and there are things I like to do better than other things. And, and, and part of that I've tried to say yes to the things I like to do, and no, to the things I not crazy about. Right. so that's, that's a habit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Well, for instance, well, I guess I, I don't like being interrupted when I'm working.

Dina Cataldo (00:19:58):

Okay.

Nancy Cogar (00:20:00):

So I can choose to be interrupted and do nothing about it. Or I could choose to try to get some help with that. So, you know, even the lawyers know how it is. You know, you're trying to work on a motion and someone's popping their head in every Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> five minutes, or your phone's ringing. Remember the time I, I covered my phone with post-it notes.

Dina Cataldo (00:20:23):

Yes, I do remember that.

Nancy Cogar (00:20:24):

So I, so I didn't see it ringing. I'm beyond that now. <Laugh>. But that might be a good way for somebody to start <laugh>.

Dina Cataldo (00:20:31):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:20:32):

No. Well, here's what I did. Okay. So I, I hired my assistant and I blocked out on my calendar regular spaces where I can meet with new people. These, these are my strategy session openings. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So she doesn't have to come down here and say, Nancy, when can you meet with so and so? She's already got it on the calendar. That takes care of that. Secondly, I changed my voicemail so that it says, hello, thank you for calling. Yes. You don't have me right now, but here's how I handle my calls. I typically answer calls in the morning and at the end of the day. So if you need to reach me before then, here's what you need to do. Right. That took care of that. And then the receptionist coming in, do you wanna talk to so and so? Well, who is so and so? I don't know. Well, I gave her a daily action plan. Here are the things I'm doing during the day, don't interrupt me here. It worked. So in those three little things, I have eliminated distractions so that I am much more productive. You know, whether it's flat rate work or, or billable work, I'm getting it done, which means ultimately I'm more productive. Right.

Dina Cataldo (00:22:12):

Yeah. Let me, let me break that down for people a little bit. So one of the tools that I use with my clients, you know, as you're listening to this, is the model. And if you're familiar with the life coach school, that's where I got master certified. And the model is, I think, the most elegant way of understanding how our brain works and how we can create better results in our life. And there's five elements to it. There's circumstances, which is what's happening in the world factually, right. Which is for, in Nancy's instance, it would be the assistant interrupting well, the assistant walking in while she's on a phone call, for instance. Right? And then she would have an interpretation of that, that interpretation, that thought she had about it would then create a feeling in her body, which would then lead her to behave in a certain way.

Dina Cataldo (00:23:01):

And then those behaviors would create a result. So Nancy, in this case where you were noticing okay, you, you made decisions that were different. You decided that you were going to direct your assistant. You were gonna create an action plan so they knew exactly when to come into your office. You were going to use your calendar to block out time specifically for your consults. You were going to change your voice message to really lay out expectations for your clients. How did you need to feel about your whole practice even being interrupted? Like, how did you get, have to feel in order to make those decisions

Nancy Cogar (00:23:45):

That it was okay to do that?

Dina Cataldo (00:23:47):

Well, that's a thought. Yeah. Right. It's okay to do that. How do you feel when you think that thought?

Nancy Cogar (00:23:53):

I'd have to feel confident at peace, you know? Okay. Stable in my own circumstance that this is what's good for me when I'm here. Yeah. This, this helps me to be the best me in this circumstance.

Dina Cataldo (00:24:06):

So, for anybody, so for those of you listening, it's like, okay, listen to your brain. If your brain says, there's nothing I can do about it, this is impossible. They're so irritating. They shouldn't be interrupting me. They should know better by now. I've told them a million times they shouldn't be doing that. Like, listen to the thoughts in your brain. And those thoughts are creating a feeling in your body. Irritation, resentment. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, annoyance, anger, all of those feelings and the actions you are taking are going to be in alignment with those thoughts and feelings. They're gonna be, you're gonna snap at them. You're not gonna do anything about it. You're gonna ruminate about it. You're gonna go on and on. You might be complaining to people about it and nothing changes. But what Nancy is saying here, if you really sit and you implement, it will change everything for you.

Dina Cataldo (00:24:57):

Because if you can understand that you are assistant coming into your office is not a problem that is creating annoyance for you, it's your brain that's creating the irritation and annoyance and how you think about her walking into your office that is creating that feeling, then you can change things. So she noticed those were the old thoughts. And then she came in and she said, look, I, this is not gonna work. I know I can make this better. I know I can figure this out. She created a sense of peace in her body, knowing like, I can, I'm, I can do this. Like I can, I can do this. She created more peace before she took different actions. 'cause You've gotta think differently, and you've gotta feel differently before you can take different actions. And that's exactly what she did. So that's like, this is, this is the secret to the universe is understanding that you, your interpretations of what's going on in your life is what is creating your results. Is there anything you wanna add to that, Nancy?

Nancy Cogar (00:26:04):

Well, I can say that when you went on that rant, I've had all those thoughts before <laugh> <laugh>, and I'm so glad that they're not there anymore.

Dina Cataldo (00:26:14):

Yeah. I mean,

Nancy Cogar (00:26:16):

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, the worst part of it all is if you go through all that, you're a million miles away from where you wanted to be when you were working on that motion or brief. Yeah. So it takes that much longer to get back to it.

Dina Cataldo (00:26:31):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:26:32):

Don't do that to yourself.

Dina Cataldo (00:26:33):

Well, that's part of what creates so much time. When you learn how to manage your mind, you get so much time back because you're not furthering it away being upset, and you're able to refocus so much quicker. I mean, you, you do have that other tangible result of is, okay, I've now learned how to redirect my assistant so she understands when I'm gonna be having focus time to work. But your brain is also now on board in a totally different way. So I just, I think that that is it, it blew my mind when I learned that. And so that's one of the things I try to hammer home in the podcast here over and over, is really how you think is gonna determine your results. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I wanna take a little side. I wanna, I wanna move a little bit, I wanna shift us a little bit because Yes. So <laugh>, so I know from our conversations that this is gonna help so many lawyers listening to this who have relationships with a significant other.

Nancy Cogar (00:27:39):

Oh boy.

Dina Cataldo (00:27:40):

Right? Yes. We're gonna go there. <Laugh>. Well, we talked about this ahead of time, so she already knew I was gonna go there. People. Yeah. So she agreed to it. So this is gonna help so many people because I talked to so many lawyers who really ha they have these relationships with their significant other, and they are hurting their relationship with their significant other because of how they think about their interactions. And one thing I really wanted to make sure we talked about here was this beautiful conversation that we had about your, your husband, who's an amazing man.

Nancy Cogar (00:28:20):

He is.

Dina Cataldo (00:28:21):

Yeah. And you, you told me one day, well, let me, let me ask you to tell the story of, of what you came to me with one day around that certain show,

Nancy Cogar (00:28:36):

<Laugh>. Oh, well, what is that show that has Sheldon on it?

Dina Cataldo (00:28:43):

Yeah. It's something like, oh, it's Big Bang, big Bang,

Nancy Cogar (00:28:45):

Big Bang Theory. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (00:28:47):

We have husbands about that show. Just FYI,

Nancy Cogar (00:28:51):

My husband really likes that show. I, on the other hand, do not think it's all that groovy <laugh> <laugh>, but that's okay. You know, I, I watch British documentaries, which my husband does not like. So we're all different. But I had an especially kind of challenging day once, and actually this happened several times. And then I finally went to Dina and said, you know, I have an issue, and I don't know how to say it other than to just tell you about it. And he said, okay. I said, you know, I'm coming home after working all day, and my husband's there and he is watching Big Bang Theory, and I try to talk to him, and he doesn't pay any attention to me. He's just sitting there laughing at whatever Sheldon is saying. And I get really off <laugh>. And I didn't get the response.

Nancy Cogar (00:29:50):

I thought from, from what you told me, <laugh>, like, why is he not paying attention to me? Yeah. I've, I've been gone all day. We, this is our time together. Well, what I realized was, you know, my husband is such an agreeable person. If I had said, honey, let's, let's talk. Or I really wanna spend time with you, or I really wanna go for a walk with you. Oh, I've had such a bad day. I just, I just need to gripe for a few minutes. Do you mind turning Big Bang theory off? And he would've been like, no, no problem. No problem. I love you, honey. Let's make time together. But no, I was not there. I was in where I was granting my teeth thinking about what a horrible show that was and that, how can my husband be laughing at that? Well, I'm sitting here and I want attention. Mm-Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (00:30:42):

<Affirmative>.

Nancy Cogar (00:30:43):

You

Dina Cataldo (00:30:43):

Know? Yeah. And that's really common. I hear that a lot because we're in our head Mm-Hmm. And we're making interpretations of what people are doing. And one of the other thoughts that came up, I don't know if you remember this, was that he thinks I'm boring.

Nancy Cogar (00:30:57):

Yeah. Yeah. My husband's a retired firefighter, and he is one of the most loving patient people and, and courageous that I've ever met in my life. He actually rescued me which is a whole nother story. But he, y yeah. You know, he's, he's not a lawyer, but that's okay. And the fact that he didn't wanna hear what I had to say about some abstract issue that came up, <laugh>, whatever that was that day, I don't even remember. Doesn't mean he thinks I'm boring. Mm-Hmm. But I could think he thinks I'm boring, and that's not true.

Dina Cataldo (00:31:40):

Yeah. Listen, listen to like what she's saying. So you can actually be thinking he thinks I'm boring and it not be true.

Nancy Cogar (00:31:49):

Yeah. Like,

Dina Cataldo (00:31:50):

You cannot, and cause all this

Nancy Cogar (00:31:52):

Hurt and alienation, and, and then I'll respond to him in an angry way. Or, you know,

Dina Cataldo (00:31:58):

It just, but tell me like, 'cause what, what we worked through there was really looking at the evidence. Okay. Because the evidence is there are the circumstances. So yeah. There were circumstances where he's, he's watching TV and he is laughing at the tv and maybe he's not ha doesn't have his eyes on you. You know, he's not like focusing his attention on you. But then what was other evidence that we looked at to show that you, he didn't think you were boring. Right. And that he actually loved you very much. Like what was some of the other evidence that you came up with?

Nancy Cogar (00:32:30):

Well, this is a husband that brings me coffee every morning, whether I ask for it or not.

Dina Cataldo (00:32:37):

Oh my God, does he have a brother

Nancy Cogar (00:32:40):

<Laugh> <laugh> if I'm running late from work, he says, you want me to pick something up? I'll make something for dinner. This is a good man. He he also has children from a previous marriage, which I, I enjoy them, but he knows I like quiet time. So if I say, you know what? I really wanna stay home and get some quiet time, he says, that's okay. So, you know, he doesn't, we don't like the same things in some respects, but he'll do whatever I ask because he says, I just wanna be with you. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (00:33:21):

That, that was a big one.

Nancy Cogar (00:33:23):

That, yeah,

Dina Cataldo (00:33:23):

That was a really big

Nancy Cogar (00:33:24):

One. I just wanna be with you. So,

Dina Cataldo (00:33:26):

Yeah. I think, you know,

Nancy Cogar (00:33:27):

Know I'm making a big issue in my brain that for nothing,

Dina Cataldo (00:33:31):

But that's what our brains do, right? Our brains come up with these sometimes fantastic stories. And if we just sit with them, if we can be present with our brain long enough to see the story, we can question it. But because we just have this, the ongoing chatter in our brain, and we just keep listening to it, like it's the news, like everything that it says, you aren't working hard enough, you're lazy. They think you're boring. They're gonna think you're a failure. You're this, you're that. You're, when we have all of these thoughts and we don't stop and we don't get present and we don't see them, we can truly create a life by default that feels horrible, that feels alienated, that feels empty in a lot of ways. And I think this was just the reason I really wanted to share this example for everybody listening, is because I think it's such a clear thought that you had, that could have taken your relationship one way if you kept it. You know, he thinks I'm boring, you know, to, oh, wait a minute, he just wants to be with me.

Nancy Cogar (00:34:48):

Yeah. That was the truth.

Dina Cataldo (00:34:49):

That was the truth. But then there's these, like, the brain wants to just go negative. And that's, there is a negativity bias in our brain. I think we all need to be aware of that. If you, if you start paying attention, you could probably start seeing more of it. Right? So that negativity bias is really not going to help us if we're not aware. Another thing I wanna talk to you about is learning to be comfortable with yourself. 'cause I think that you have really come into yourself over four years, that your comfort level with yourself and your success, honestly, because you've become more and more successful as the years have gone by. And you've built the capacity to really help people in such a big way. In your practice with your podcast, all of these things, I know you've got plans for speaking engagements, like all of these things that you're really playing big in your life and in your practice. And I would like to hear your thoughts about how you have begun to, how did you begin to step into this level of comfort for yourself so you could build this capacity to have?

Nancy Cogar (00:36:06):

I think first of all, there's a mind shift. I used to wake up in the morning and think, oh gosh, who's looking for me? Right? So, okay. Make myself the, the hunted, you know, versus this is day of opportunity <laugh>. Right? So, in that thought, I thought, you know what? I need to really build an encampment, you know, a place where I have my own sanctuary so that I can operate as I want to within the, the framework that I feel comfortable in. Right. Rather than thinking, you know, it's coming from here, it's coming from there. I don't know where it's coming from. So that's what I did. I built some confidence around that. So I chose when I want to work and when I don't want to work. I chose to build in opportunities to exercise, which is not a natural thing for me.

Nancy Cogar (00:37:11):

And I hired a coach so that I have accountability, and that has made a huge difference in my life. That's on my calendar. I have told my clients or explained to them, this is how I operate, this is what you can expect from me. I do that upfront so that they are not surprised. And if they don't like that kind of operation, it's okay if they wanna go find somebody else. Right. But maybe I'm not a good fit for them then. But the, the good news is I'm more comfortable in where I am now. So, and my perspective changes in that. I don't know if that answers your question, but I think, yeah, I think that's a big piece of it, because then when I feel safe, I feel fed, nourished, comfortable, I can be much more servant oriented, which is, which is what is my desire, rather than thinking that someone's picking a piece of me off, you know? And I have no control over it.

Dina Cataldo (00:38:24):

Yeah. You gave us some beautiful actions, right? That you, in, you got intentional about how you engaged with clients, how you created boundaries, set expectations, really started taking care of yourself. What do you think needed to change within you, your thoughts, your feelings? Who did you need to be in order to take those actions?

Nancy Cogar (00:38:50):

Well, simple but huge. I had to be an advocate for myself. Mm-Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (00:38:57):

<Affirmative>. Yeah. When you think that, like, I ha I am an advocate for myself, how do you feel in your body?

Nancy Cogar (00:39:09):

Flush, warm. Mm-Hmm. Comfortable.

Dina Cataldo (00:39:12):

Yeah. The safety.

Nancy Cogar (00:39:14):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Dina Cataldo (00:39:15):

That's beautiful feelings.

Nancy Cogar (00:39:17):

Oh, yeah.

Dina Cataldo (00:39:18):

And I, I, I'm glad that you brought that up because I think so many of us lawyers, we've been in this heightened state of anxiety and overwhelm and stress that we've forgotten what it feels like to feel safe. And so we are constantly trying to play whack-a-mole in our lives, and we're putting out fires, and we're trying to, to work later nights and work weekends and just hustle, hustle, hustle in order to feel safe, to feel like we're not gonna drop a ball, right? So, oh my gosh, I could, I could forget something. Or, you know, this person's gonna be mad at me or this or that. And so we're just playing whack-a-mole. We're reactive in our lives until we learn the skills that you've learned, which are, how do I create my own safety? How do I create an environment where I am my own best advocate? And that, that's like a beautiful way to really describe how you made that shift.

Nancy Cogar (00:40:19):

It's ironic too, isn't it? Because we're professional advocates, people coming to us seeking advocacy. Yeah. So we, I think it's a critical thing that we need to learn how to advocate for ourselves. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If we can't do that, how are we gonna be a hundred percent for people that are coming to us for that?

Dina Cataldo (00:40:39):

Oh, we can't. We can't. And I, I think we, you know, we get into this profe profession, so many of us anyway, get into this profession to be of service, and then we make it as hard as possible in the legal profession. We're taught this, so it's not our fault. Right. We basically have been taught the hardest way possible to try to serve people, which is to do everything at your expense. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And if you are doing everything at your expense, if you are helping people at your expense, you are going to burn out. And you are not going to be able to serve. You're gonna be resentful, you're gonna be angry, and you're not gonna like your job. And so many of us are taught that it's, that's just what it means to be a lawyer. Like, that's just what has to happen. Like, oh yeah. Who

Nancy Cogar (00:41:25):

Wants that?

Dina Cataldo (00:41:26):

Right? Well, nobody does. But we all think that, oh, well I went to law school for three years, and so then I got into this job, and this is just how it is. Everybody's like this. So this must just be how it is.

Nancy Cogar (00:41:39):

You're believing a lie. Yes. so <laugh>, so I worked for a small firm, so no knocking big firms, but big firms are big firms. And at one point I was recruited to go work at a big firm. Remember we talked about this? Yeah. And during the interview process, <laugh>, they said, well, how do you feel about working 70, 80 hour weeks? And I said I'd have to have a really good compelling reason to do that,

Dina Cataldo (00:42:15):

<Laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (00:42:18):

And they didn't understand what I was talking about.

Dina Cataldo (00:42:20):

What do you mean?

Nancy Cogar (00:42:22):

They actually came back and said, oh, they wanna find someone full-time, not part-time.

Dina Cataldo (00:42:27):

That is hilarious. You're like, oh, let me get this straight. I can actually make more money working for myself and work the hours that I want. Or, I could come and work for you where you want me to kill myself. Hmm. Let me think about that one. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:42:49):

I still laugh about that. Yeah. I go, okay,

Dina Cataldo (00:42:54):

Okay. But so many of us are taught that that's really what the aspiration is. I remember that in law school, we were, you know, going into all these interviews and the aspiration was to be taken up by one of these big firms. And now looking back, I'm like, this is insane. Why would any of us even allow ourselves to think like this? Why, why did I allow myself to work for, you know, the, the DA's office where they were really expecting crazy amount of hours? But at the same time, I was not familiar with how to advocate for myself in terms of how do I set up my boundaries? How do I run a calendar? I, I, it would've been so much easier those early years if I just had that skill. But the, somebody actually literally saying 70, 80 hours a week to you, like, that's bananas. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:43:43):

And I mean, this was a big partner in a big firm, and he was not, I guess he wasn't very pleased with my response, but, Hey, I had nothing to lose. I was like I don't think so.

Dina Cataldo (00:43:56):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:43:57):

What's the benefit for me?

Dina Cataldo (00:43:59):

Benefit. Yeah. What do I get outta it? Yeah. Because it's just so fascinating because even that old school mentality that that's what you need to do in order to make money or to serve clients, is just, I think that's so outdated. I think that most law firms now get it, at least to God. I hope that's, that's true. Is that they're starting to underst understand that that is untenable. To have that continued pace and how, 'cause this wasn't that long ago. So I know that the, there's lots of firms that are still thinking that way. It's like, this is untenable for your people. It's like you are literally just trying to kill people in your firm. 'cause You're gonna get a new supply of lawyers. 'cause You, you cannot do that forever.

Nancy Cogar (00:44:45):

Well, and and seriously, I'm not that I'm, I I'm part of the community. So I can see at least three people have passed through in that position since that happened. Mm-Hmm. They can can't maintain it. But they don't see any problem with that.

Dina Cataldo (00:45:01):

Yeah. There's just like, they don't, they don't understand it. It's, it's the old school thinking. And they're just stuck in this mentality, this mindset of that's just the way it is. It's not, oh, not they, there must be something wrong with them. It's like Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

Nancy Cogar (00:45:15):

Oh, there's something wrong with me. You're right.

Dina Cataldo (00:45:17):

Right. <laugh>. Right. It's like, let's, let's take a look at why this isn't working and let's figure it out versus let's just go through a million people. Yeah. Yeah. I know.

Nancy Cogar (00:45:27):

Let's just, what's that? Isn't that the definition of insanity? Well, trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Dina Cataldo (00:45:35):

We see that with people hiring too. So like, if you are hiring people and you see that they're not, you know, working out over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's like, well, wait a minute. Maybe I need to take a look at me and what I am doing. 'cause It's not them. If that's happening. It's not them. It's us. <Laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (00:45:53):

Well, I'm so glad you brought that up, because that's another aspect of my business that you helped with. And I have a fantastic legal assistant. I mean, as a matter of fact, we're talking next week about going out on a half day retreat to talk about planning issues.

Dina Cataldo (00:46:12):

I love that. And you just hired a VA and you've got someone assisting you with your podcast. I mean, like, you've got a team now.

Nancy Cogar (00:46:18):

I know. It's pretty cool.

Dina Cataldo (00:46:20):

Pretty cool. I mean, like, when we started working together, you were, you were totally solo and now you got a team.

Nancy Cogar (00:46:27):

I know. I was so lonely in that office. <Laugh>. Yeah. Well, you know, and it, the important thing I will say to people that may be on the other side of that coin is do something about it.

Dina Cataldo (00:46:42):

What would you say to them? Because there's so many people who, who are scared, they're like, oh no, it's so much easier if I just do it, it's faster if I do it myself. It's like, what would you say to them?

Nancy Cogar (00:46:53):

I think, honestly, and this might sound kind of strange, I think we have an obligation to invest in other people. It's like our business is a body and it's healthier when you find the right connections. Yeah. And it'll thrive. It really will. You know, I, I make investments in the community. And I think that that's part of the blessing I have from my business is that I can, you know, support something and bless somebody that that's why I make money, not to make money for the firm, you know? Mm-Hmm. To make money from as part of what I, what's important to me, you know?

Dina Cataldo (00:47:44):

Yeah. I think that's true. And I also think that, you know, so many of us are concerned about being stressed out and overwhelmed, and we think, oh, it's just one more thing that we have to do. And if we go in that with that mentality, we are not seeing the bigger picture. We're not getting the 10,000 foot view of our business and saying, oh, wait a minute, when I invest the time to create some standard operating procedures, maybe just hire a VA for my favorite for 10 hours a week. My favorite. Yes. We work on those quite extensively in our sessions recently. But like, really invest that time and energy into that training and say, okay, yeah, maybe I put that training in, and that's not the person that's okay's, but I actually need, that's okay. I need to set those things up anyway. And I need to try somebody anyway. So let's just do it. Let's hire somebody. And if you're in my business strategy calls, if you're one of my clients, you get access to how to hire your dream employees. So just know that <laugh>. So that's a training that we did in there. She

Nancy Cogar (00:48:54):

Yeah. And she helped me with that.

Dina Cataldo (00:48:56):

So just know it is possible for you if you're kind of thinking about it, and maybe you're a little scared, you've never hired anybody before. You don't have to hire somebody full time. You could hire someone for 10 hours a week, a va, you know, it, it is doable. And

Nancy Cogar (00:49:10):

Guess what? My assistant is billing for me.

Dina Cataldo (00:49:15):

That's right.

Nancy Cogar (00:49:15):

So she's paying for herself.

Dina Cataldo (00:49:17):

That's right. Plus,

Nancy Cogar (00:49:19):

Plus,

Dina Cataldo (00:49:20):

Plus, you're actually profiting on those hours. And that's something I think a lot of lawyers have. I know you and I actually talked extensively about this when you had hired your first assistant and we, we really were working through numbers because your brain was like, I don't know if I have enough money to invest in this assistant. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> can, if somebody else is listening to this and they might be thinking the same thing, like, you know, I just don't know if I'm making enough money. What would you tell them to do? Because so much of it was money mindset, like what we really talked through.

Nancy Cogar (00:49:56):

I think we had to really get into the details.

Dina Cataldo (00:49:59):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:50:00):

For me, it was really beneficial to, like you said, take that a hundred thousand, a hundred thousand, 10,000, whatever it is. Yeah. The big macro view, and then go a little closer, closer, closer, closer. So whatever that number is that I think is the number mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, which is, is what it is. What does that look like from a yearly standpoint? If I'm working all these days, plan out my vacation, what is the number that I'm gonna have at the end of the year? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because numbers don't lie. Right? Okay. So, wow. That number may be bigger than you think. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So let's take it in a a bit. What does it look like each month? How many consults am I gonna do? How many new clients am I gonna have? How many, you know, what, what is the percentage of my business? Is it flat rates? Is it billable? You know, is it both? And how does that work? What is the goal at the end of the month? Does that match the yearly goal? Right. Then look at a week. Same thing. And that was, that was surprising, but extremely beneficial for me.

Dina Cataldo (00:51:20):

Tell me why.

Nancy Cogar (00:51:23):

Well, because I had built evidence in my head about how I could not afford somebody, and it just wasn't true. When I ran those numbers and I started to look at what they could do for me and the amount of time mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and, you know, the value of what they would provide at whatever the percent, you know, the billable rate was, they were, I could afford it. And in addition, addition to that, I get back my time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, I get back more time. So that just increases the numbers. I I just think it's really limiting to just think, you know, from being on the other side of the wall now, I think it's really limiting to think, oh, this person's gonna cost 60 K. Let's say you know, I can't afford that. Well, what if you built in a structure where you know, they're billing X number of hours a day, and then does that equal what you need at the end of the week, month, year?

Dina Cataldo (00:52:34):

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and I know that so many lawyers I work with because, and I think it's a direct relationship with their relationship with time. So if they feel like they're really scarce around time, oftentimes they'll feel really scarce around money. It's just this scarcity mentality. So what I have seen and what I've also experienced is that feeling of scarcity that can come up when you look at numbers. Because there, there's something about looking at the numbers. We think thoughts like, I should be working harder, I should have more by now. This isn't gonna work. I don't have enough. Or, you know, all these different thoughts that we have about the numbers, whatever they might be. And we don't pause and just remember they are numbers and all the thoughts that are coming up in our brain are simply thoughts. They're not truths. And if we could just get ourselves there long enough to just say it's okay to feel anxious, it's okay to feel scared or whatever feelings coming up in your body. Let me just look at the number, then we can start doing exactly what you said. Let's look at, okay, what did I make last year in the 12 months? How did I divide that up every month? How does that look every week? And, and then what are my expectations? Should I hire somebody that they're gonna be billing for me? And, and what am I going to be getting in return for that investment? Is there anything you, and what

Nancy Cogar (00:54:03):

Do I want them to do?

Dina Cataldo (00:54:04):

Yeah. What do I want them to do? Like we actually listed out exactly, you know, step by step. What do I want them to do in my practice? How are they going to make my lives easier? Is there anything you would add to that in terms of how you needed to look at the numbers or how you felt when you were looking at the numbers or what you, what would you say to somebody in that position?

Nancy Cogar (00:54:26):

Well, it's made me love numbers. Mm-Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (00:54:28):

<Affirmative>. Yeah. Tell me why.

Nancy Cogar (00:54:31):

Well, because I made all kinds of assumptions that were based on a, were perspective of scarcity. Mm-Hmm. Ity, and then shifted and actually did the work. And I'm living in abundance. Yeah. I'm not worried about money. I mean, I'm, I'm having fun and I'm Yeah. Enjoying what I'm doing. Yeah. And it's okay if I, you know, if I've got four billable hours a on a day, let's say I spent an hour with someone and I took in, you know, a flat rate, eh, it's, it's gonna be okay.

Dina Cataldo (00:55:12):

Yeah. I think we forget that. Right. And, and this is where the mindset comes in, is when you have a day when you didn't bill, let's say as many hours as you thought you were going to bill, or that you wanted to bill, then the brain can start making it mean, oh my God, I'm not gonna hit my goals. I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. And your brain starts to worry and ruminate and, and you spiral versus it's gonna be okay, be we start up again tomorrow. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, and then you are gonna make back the time. Like it just is going to happen, but it's not going to happen if you're spinning out.

Nancy Cogar (00:55:49):

No.

Dina Cataldo (00:55:50):

You've gotta come back to yourself and really recog like say exactly what you just said to yourself and say it's gonna be okay. And then you just keep going. And as you, you practice it more and more, it becomes more natural. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:56:06):

Well, and I, and I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I, I think there are a lot of things that we do where we spend a lot of money that we don't need to spend money that are causing pressure.

Dina Cataldo (00:56:19):

Well, it's not the spending of the money that's causing pressure.

Nancy Cogar (00:56:22):

Well, the thoughts about spending the money, right? Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (00:56:25):

Well, I mean, this is the, the funny thing, right? Is the more pressure we feel, the more likely we are to spend money <laugh>. So if we're, right. So if you're thinking thoughts like, oh my God, I don't have enough money, you're gonna feel, you're gonna feel bad. You're gonna feel pressure. And then it makes you more likely to do things like, oh, you know what'll feel better? Let me buy this thing. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:56:43):

You know, I need to buy seven more reams of the paper

Dina Cataldo (00:56:46):

And it, and it Yeah. And it temporarily releases the pressure. So we think that was a good thing. And then we look back at it and we say, oh, why did I do that? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we just create that spiral of worry.

Nancy Cogar (00:56:57):

I had a lot of that early on in my practice. Yeah. Because I felt like there were so many things I didn't know that I was just almost kind of gorging on information.

Dina Cataldo (00:57:10):

Ooh, tell me more about that. 'cause I see a lot of lawyers in that position.

Nancy Cogar (00:57:16):

Well, when I first was hired by an attorney it was in a practice area, was not planning to practice. And he was one of those marathon driven kind of people. So in, in my experience with him, I learned a lot. And he is still a friend, but there are a lot of things that he did that I don't do anymore. And I think some of them are related to perfectionism. And then the others, like I said, was always feeling kind of inadequate. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that, oh, there's this CLE that's on this issue. I need to buy that. Oh, I gotta do that right now. So you spend $400 on some CLE, oh, look at this big book on, you know, everything you need to know about blah, blah, blah law. I'm gonna go buy that. I look, here's a new training program on how to make a hundred thousand dollars a year without even trying. I'm gonna go back

Dina Cataldo (00:58:20):

That <laugh>, you know,

Nancy Cogar (00:58:21):

It doesn't work. It may make you feel better for a little while, but it, it doesn't work.

Dina Cataldo (00:58:28):

Why do you think it doesn't work?

Nancy Cogar (00:58:31):

Because it takes the, the regular kind of consistency and discipline and showing up and working through things that are, you know, quite frankly what I do with you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then after we meet, implementing some of those things. So it's not gonna help me if I meet with you and then I, I just don't do it. Right. I have to do it. And it, you know, it's a, it's fun, it's exciting for me to see, hey, we talked about, we, you and I talked about something recently that was like, okay, I've got all these hour long consults. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how can I get some of that time back? And, you know, it started out with something as innocent as, you know, I say a lot of the same things over and over and over again. So, okay, well how can we turn that into a system? And Wow, it is morphed into the most creative, exciting project and I think it's gonna help me get back, you know, at least three hours a week. Yeah. So in a month, that's a lot of time.

Dina Cataldo (00:59:43):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (00:59:44):

And again, it's doing the math, like, how significant is this? You know, we've done that with the quadrants. How important is this? Am I wasting time on something that's not gonna be Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (00:59:57):

We should say, okay. When she mentions the quadrants, what we, we have an exercise that we go through that is really determining what she wants to prioritize. Right. So when you hear that phrase, that's what, that's what she's referring to. So, yeah. Right.

Nancy Cogar (01:00:11):

Yeah. So me thinking that, you know, I need to repaginate my intake form. And yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:00:18):

It was probably not the most beneficial use of your time. Right. But that's what we care.

Nancy Cogar (01:00:24):

Nobody cares. Nobody care. Right. Nobody

Dina Cataldo (01:00:25):

Cares. Nobody, nobody cares. But the thing is, is it feels good in the moment, like you were saying about the spending on the CLE, right? It feels good in the moment. Well, if I just paginate this thing that's gonna feel really good, I'm gonna feel like I accomplished something versus wait a minute, that doesn't get me back my time. It wastes my time. And meanwhile, there are these bigger things that we could have systematized within our practice to gain back. It's gonna be like a hundred plus hours a, a year, right? When it comes down to it. Oh, yeah,

Nancy Cogar (01:00:52):

Yeah, yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:00:53):

That's how many days? That's like four days of your life. Yeah, I know. So it's, but you can't get there paginating intake forms, right? So <laugh>,

Nancy Cogar (01:01:03):

<Laugh>, you know, and I am Type A, so thinking about paginating intake forms sounds really great.

Dina Cataldo (01:01:10):

It, it sounds exciting. It really does. Like, I'm not gonna lie, like having all the organiza organized things sounds beautiful. And that's the balance is like recognizing that feeling, that urge to do something that's not really gonna have a benefit long term versus, ah, that's systematize consults. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, this sounds

Nancy Cogar (01:01:31):

Well, and the beauty of getting something out of your head and into a system Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> where it can be preserved, utilized, replicated. I mean, I think that is a huge issue with lawyers. Oh, yeah. Because we rely on so much here

Dina Cataldo (01:01:48):

Too much. Yeah. There's too much that's just hanging out in your head, and it's not down on paper. Like, this is, this is the problem. And like, that's why I'm such a big advocate on the SOPs, right? Like SOPs in the, like, the business strategy calls, like when you and I talk, we're talking SOPs and, and it sounds so freaking boring. I call 'em stellar SOPs now, <laugh>, because I have to like, jazz it up a little bit. But when you start getting stuff out of your head and onto paper so somebody else can take it off your plate, it is magical. It really is. And it doesn't in the moment. It, it could be tedious. Like I, I've been doing some, you know, recently for my va and they can be tedious, but when I do it, it's so satisfying. 'cause I can be like, here you take this and I don't have to think about it anymore. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (01:02:38):

Like, it's a way to preserve yourself.

Dina Cataldo (01:02:43):

Yeah. And it's,

Nancy Cogar (01:02:44):

And then you can go somewhere else and it can continue on. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:02:52):

I wanted to ask you this question. I know that we're, we're coming on the hour, I think, but I wanted to ask you this question because, you know, so much of the work that we did early on was around calendar management. And I truly believe that when you start learning how to master your mind around your calendar, that all the stuff we've been talking about, the hiring, the, you know, mindset around money, the SOPs, you know, systematizing, all of that becomes easier when we can manage our mind around time. It's kind of like our training wheels, and then we start taking off the training wheels and then we just start jamming down the street. For you and your calendar, what was your biggest challenge? Let's just start there. What was your biggest challenge?

Nancy Cogar (01:03:48):

I think not putting buffer time in my calendar. Like, I thought I had to have everything back to back, you know? Mm-Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (01:03:56):

<Affirmative>. Yeah. I see that a lot. It's like, oh, okay, 9:00 AM appointment, 10:00 AM 11, 12. And you're like, wait a minute. <Laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (01:04:04):

Yeah, <laugh>. Why am I doing that to myself?

Dina Cataldo (01:04:06):

Yeah. What helped you make a shift away from that?

Nancy Cogar (01:04:13):

Well, I had to articulate that Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and realize that it was, you know, Hey, I need a breather. Like Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I need a breather. It's okay to have lunch, you know?

Dina Cataldo (01:04:25):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (01:04:26):

And I think I performed better because of those breathers.

Dina Cataldo (01:04:31):

Yeah. That's actually something that we did early on, is just do evaluations of the calendar every week. So if you ca you would come to a calendar, you'd say, I, I didn't get this done. I didn't get that done, you know, this, this, this, and this wasn't working. And I'd say, okay, well, what do you wanna do differently next week? And then we'd work through that. And then is it is really articulating it, thinking about it strategically and intentionally, that helps you start to make those shifts. And I think that most of us don't do that. Most of us just think, oh, oh, well it didn't work. Throw the calendar up in the air, throw it out the window,

Nancy Cogar (01:05:09):

Or carry this perpetual kind of to-do list in your brain. I'll never get all this done.

Dina Cataldo (01:05:15):

And then Yeah. Which is what people a lot of lawyers do. That's why they're so grumpy.

Nancy Cogar (01:05:19):

I know. <Laugh>. Well then you, and I'll sit down and you'll say, okay, what's, what's on your list? Well, I got, you know, the Becker matter. I gotta draft this motion. When do you wanna do that? Let's look at your calendar. <Laugh>.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):

Okay.

Nancy Cogar (01:05:35):

What's next? Mm-Hmm. Oh, well there's the, you know, this Elliot matter. When do you wanna do that? Okay. How long is that gonna take? Done. It's on there. Great.

Dina Cataldo (01:05:48):

You know what guys? This, I'm glad you brought this up. The way you set that, because it reminded me to come back to a question I asked earlier, because I'd asked a question about what do you do when you don't want to do things because we all don't want to do things. And, and you, you gave a different answer and I, I forgot to circle around about it, but there are things on your calendar you don't wanna do. I know there is, because I know on my calendar there is too. And we're both human beings, so we're always gonna have things we don't wanna do on our calendar. So what do you do when you see something on your calendar and you are like, ah, your brain says, ah, I don't wanna do that. What do you, what do you say to yourself?

Nancy Cogar (01:06:27):

I tell myself it'll be Okay, Nancy, we go get ice cream afterwards. Yay.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):

Yeah. <Laugh>, you are a good girl. <Laugh>,

Nancy Cogar (01:06:38):

Like getting the shot at the doctor's

Dina Cataldo (01:06:40):

Office. <Laugh>, is that what you do? Is that what you do?

Nancy Cogar (01:06:43):

I think that's probably an exaggeration, but Right. You know, I do like ice cream. 

Nancy Cogar (01:06:51):

I, you know, I have days where I'm tired. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And, you know, then I've got an appointment coming in and I know they've got a complex issue and I just, I'm like, oh man, I gotta build myself up for this. But instead of thinking that I stop and I go, you know, because people are coming to me for help and I can help them. I'm just gonna listen to them. And I just kind of reframe it so that it's not me having to perform, it's me being present to hear. And it takes a lot of pressure off. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and then when I'm in there, it's, you know, I think they're the most fabulous people in the world. So I think a lot of it's perspective. I think the way I answered it before was that I don't do those things. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):

<Affirmative>.

Nancy Cogar (01:07:38):

Which, you know, you have some control over what you do and don't do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 

Dina Cataldo (01:07:43):

Well, I think you talked about it in specifically in Yeah. That and well, and I don't like in interruptions, which was like a slightly different context. Oh

Nancy Cogar (01:07:52):

Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:07:53):

Right. But this context is, yeah. There's always gonna be something that we don't wanna do on our calendar in the moment.

Nancy Cogar (01:07:59):

Oh yeah. You get someone that's so adversarial, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Oh, I've been through that. You know.

Dina Cataldo (01:08:05):

Okay. I, why

Nancy Cogar (01:08:06):

Does this person have to be so difficult?

Dina Cataldo (01:08:09):

I have to, I gotta ask you about this because this is like, every lawyer has this going on, right? There's always somebody who is very adversarial. They think like, you recently were in a trial. Ugh. Do you mind if I talk about,

Nancy Cogar (01:08:24):

Well, and, and I mean there's a great outcome to it, so Yeah, go ahead.

Dina Cataldo (01:08:28):

Well, the attorney in that particular instance was basically trying everything in the book that was non-legal to attempt to rattle you and attempt to jar you. And he was very not nice to put it in some way. So, and you know, tell me your experience with that. 'cause You handled it beautifully. And I, and I'm curious if you could share with people how you managed your mind in those times when you had that counsel doing those things.

Nancy Cogar (01:09:06):

Well, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, everybody has a different kind of style. So this was someone that has practiced for a very long time, and it was typically a litigator and had the kind of showboat, you know, showmanship, scrappy lawyer, you know, he'll, he'll fight you to the last dime, you know, one of those kind of guys. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is fine, you know, that works for some people. I had to go through some hazing with him. Right. So that's what it amounted to. So he used to say things to me like, blah, blah, blah, you know, wow, where's your partner? Are you gonna be able to start without him? You know? And I'd think, oh, he means that I'm incompetent, or something like that. And I'd get so offended. Well, no, that's not what he meant. He's just jazzing me. Right? Mm-Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (01:10:02):

<Affirmative>. Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (01:10:03):

And after a while I started to realize that that's just his act and he's paid to, his client pays him to do that.

Dina Cataldo (01:10:16):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (01:10:18):

It's not about me. He's doing it to everybody. Yeah. So, so I just started to jazz him back <laugh>, and he didn't know what to do, but at the end, I mean, when we were done with the trial, which was extremely difficult, you know, he just said, I'm so glad this is over. You are an excellent lawyer. Mm. And he shook my hand. Mm. So it

Dina Cataldo (01:10:44):

Really is an act. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Some people take it all the way to the extreme and maybe they wouldn't shake your hand at the end. So that's something, you know, at the end where it really showed that this was an act, but Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> it's so important for us to know that, that the behavior of other people does not have anything to do with us.

Nancy Cogar (01:11:03):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was carrying it around for a little while thinking, what am I doing wrong? Why does he think this about me? And, you know, how can I get him to stop doing that? When I ignored it, it went away. You know, then I just start jazzing him.

Dina Cataldo (01:11:22):

Yeah. 'cause when he sees it doesn't affect you. You're just, you're just like, this is fun. Yeah. This is fun. It's

Nancy Cogar (01:11:27):

Like, yeah. It's like the kid in elementary school that just wants to poke you, poke you, poke you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you get irritated, they're gonna keep doing it. So. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:11:35):

Well, so many lawyers just wanna quit the profession because they think, oh, all, all, all lawyers are like this. All lawyers are gonna, you know, and it, and they make it mean something about them and their performance and how they are. And so that's why they wanna just leave. 'cause They feel so horrible about themselves and all of that, when in reality it's not about them at all. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And they can stay in the profession. They can, you know, really become the attorney they are meant to become if they want to stay in the profession by learning these mind management tools and understanding what, what you realized while this guy was performing while he was putting on an act, you know?

Nancy Cogar (01:12:14):

Yeah. I started to laugh. Yeah. And then even in the trial, we were laughing at each other.

Dina Cataldo (01:12:19):

<Laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (01:12:25):

Yeah. The jury's looking at us like, what's up with these people? I'm like, it's alright.

Dina Cataldo (01:12:30):

We're having fun over here. People.

Nancy Cogar (01:12:32):

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:12:36):

Is there anything that

Nancy Cogar (01:12:37):

It

Dina Cataldo (01:12:37):

Was, is there anything we, that we didn't cover that you wanna make sure that, you know, the people listening really get from this conversation?

Nancy Cogar (01:12:49):

Oh, I think that, you know, the overarching issue and really primary nugget I think is important in all this is to take care of yourself. Hmm. You know, most people are not like us. Most people wouldn't do what we do.

Nancy Cogar (01:13:17):

It's hard. Be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself and take care of yourself. Because if you don't take care of yourself, you can't help anybody, you know. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So go for that walk. Eat some colorful food, you know, get some sleep. Don't don't sleep on the floor of your office for 20 minutes and think that's gonna be enough. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, go get a ma a manicure. Go get your suit dry cleaned. You'll feel so much better when you're in court and you know, your suit is pressed and you know, it's important.

Dina Cataldo (01:14:05):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (01:14:05):

Don't get a $5 haircut. Go get your haircut the right way.

Dina Cataldo (01:14:09):

Yeah. <laugh>. Oh my, my God. Yes. Please, please, like, invest in yourself. Like really. Yeah. You are important. And, and I think we treat ourselves as afterthoughts so often, and as lawyers, we think it's about everybody else. We need to do everything for everybody. And we are the only responsible person for everybody's problems. And that's, that's

Nancy Cogar (01:14:33):

So not true.

Dina Cataldo (01:14:34):

No. And I, I see it just so often that we, because we're over responsibility for other people and we're taking on all of these things, we don't pause to ask ourselves if we should be, and then we don't take a look at where are we not taking responsibility for ourselves and how we feel and how we are being in the world towards other people. Like, I love one of my mentors says, Hey, you know, you could be beautiful for all these people that you know you're serving. You know, in the moment when you, you know, like you're, you're on show, right? You're on performing in court or for the person in your office, but how are you treating the person at the grocery store when you're online? Right. How are you treating, you know those people that you bump into that maybe, you know, they, they wanna get in front of you on the freeway. Like, just, just let 'em in. Like let yourself be calm. Let yourself

Nancy Cogar (01:15:35):

It matters. Yeah. It matters. It matters.

Dina Cataldo (01:15:38):

Right. Like how you treat yourself, how you treat other people. It just matters. It all matters. The

Nancy Cogar (01:15:42):

Chances are if you're not nice to other people, you're not being nice to yourself.

Dina Cataldo (01:15:46):

A hundred percent. 'cause It's a mirror. Yeah. If we're aggravated with other people, we're really aggravated with ourself for some reason.

Nancy Cogar (01:15:54):

Yeah. And the other thing I would say is it's okay to do nothing.

Dina Cataldo (01:15:59):

It is, if you didn't hear her, she said it's okay to do nothing. Nothing. Yeah. I agree. That's actually been one of my, one of my big lessons in this life is to be able to sit on the porch and do nothing.

Nancy Cogar (01:16:14):

Oh,

Dina Cataldo (01:16:15):

Love it. Love it. Not mess on the phone. Not on the computer. It is, it is. It's not an easy task for most of us because we're taught that our value is based on the work that we do. And if we're doing nothing, that somehow we are less valuable.

Nancy Cogar (01:16:32):

Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:16:35):

We're all valuable from birth. Like, you can't even do enough things to be as valuable as you are already.

Nancy Cogar (01:16:47):

Absolutely.

Dina Cataldo (01:16:49):

Hmm. This has been such a pleasure to have this opportunity to have this extended conversation with you. I hope that people go and listen to your episode where we're talking to Boomer time because Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I'm gonna link to it in the show notes 'cause I wanna make sure everybody listens to it as soon as it comes out. I think that was a really great conversation too. Mm. We talked a lot about mindset and it, it's so important to really understand these fundamentals for our wellbeing. And yeah. I, I would like, if you would to, if you would please share where people can find you, where people can find the podcast and any parting words,

Nancy Cogar (01:17:33):

Parting words, <laugh>, <laugh>,

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):

Live

Nancy Cogar (01:17:36):

Long and prosper. <Laugh>

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):

<Laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (01:17:44):

Oh. Well, thank you. And thank you for this opportunity to share. I, I hope that this has been helpful. And I just enjoy sharing, you know, it's like celebrating your success in a way, you know, and you've been such an integral part of that, which I've already said, but it's definitely true. If people wanna find me they can go to my website. Probably the best place to go. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> my website, nancy coger.com. That's N-A-N-C-Y-C-O-G-A r.com. And you can email me there, you can find my podcast Boomer Time, which is working on its 30th episode. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, pretty exciting. Yes. And it's all about helping people understand the complex issues that come up as you age and offering more resources as far as individuals, mostly adult children who find themselves in that unpaid caregiver position, which they're about 34 million Americans that find themselves in that position in some way or shape or form. So it's significant. And I just love doing that. And I am here in Chattanooga, Tennessee, so look at a map. You'll see me

Dina Cataldo (01:19:07):

Stop by and say hi,

Nancy Cogar (01:19:08):

Above Georgia. Yay <laugh>. So yeah, and, and I, I love hearing from people, so if, if this is meant anything to you or you have a question, feel free to email me and you can email me right from my website. So if you have a question about whether you should invest in Dina, I'm glad to tell you Yes. So,

Dina Cataldo (01:19:32):

Aw.

Nancy Cogar (01:19:33):

Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. So life is short. Do it today. Okay. So party words

Dina Cataldo (01:19:40):

And with that said,

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):

<Laugh> parting words. <Laugh>.

Dina Cataldo (01:19:47):

Yes, please. I would like to hear your some more wisdom.

Nancy Cogar (01:19:53):

I don't wanna say anything that sounds too corny, but so this will sound corny, but it's true. You only get to go around this planet one time around, I believe. Okay. and you have this open canvas to be able to create this masterpiece of a life and meet all these people, all these different colors and, and opportunities and memories that are just so vibrant. Don't be afraid. Do it. Nobody tells you what that canvas has to look like, you know, and if it doesn't work, so what I, I remember they said Thomas Edison, who if you ever go down to Fort Myers and visit his, visit his house, you will be amazed at the amount of things that he worked on that never became anything, you know, and he's the guy that gave us what electricity, not to mention phonographs. Right. but you're gonna fail. That's what it takes to su succeed. So I'll say that again. You're gonna fail, but that's what it takes to succeed. Failures are learning opportunities. They are not reflections of who you are, they're opportunities themselves. Right. How's that for parting words? Na, una <laugh>.

Nancy Cogar (01:21:34):

I know. I'm weird folks. <Laugh>,

Dina Cataldo (01:21:37):

You're my kind of gal. Yeah. I mean that, that is the truth. Like, you, you did speak the truth and knowing that we play full out is the only way to ensure that we don't have regrets when we die.

Nancy Cogar (01:21:53):

Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (01:21:54):

It's not a secret. We're gonna die, folks, we're gonna die. You know, and that's not a bad thing because I think it really puts in perspective the time that we have here and the impact that we can have on people. And it's such a beautiful reminder that we do have the ability to take action and change things and have that impact when we think about that. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.

Nancy Cogar (01:22:17):

<Affirmative>. One of my favorite movies is, it's a Wonderful Life. And remember when he gets to the point where he is at this crisis and he says, I wish I was never born. And he gets his wish and it helps him realize that his life is a gift. And it's so rippling that he doesn't even realize it. Yeah. Until he is gone.

Dina Cataldo (01:22:42):

Yeah.

Nancy Cogar (01:22:43):

So,

Dina Cataldo (01:22:44):

Yeah, we all old

Nancy Cogar (01:22:45):

George Bailey.

Dina Cataldo (01:22:46):

Oh, it's a good movie. Thank you so much for being here, Nancy. Oh, this has really been a pleasure.

Nancy Cogar (01:22:53):

My pleasure. Oh, pleasure's all mine. I like hanging out with you. Yeah,

Dina Cataldo (01:22:56):

Same here. Alright, my friends, thank you so much for being here. If you would like to learn more about Nancy, go to nancy coger.com. Listen to her fabulous podcast, boomer Time. And if you would like to learn more about working with me, you can book a strategy session at dina cataldo.com/strategy session. That's dina cataldo.com/strategy session. I hope you have a fabulous rest of your week, and we'll talk to you next week. Bye.