#354: Leaving the Law with Special Guest Elena Deutsch

Read this episode: Leave the Law

Dina Cataldo (00:00):

Welcome to the podcast, Elena. It's so good to have you here.

Elena Deutsch (01:30):

Thanks, Dina. It's so good to be here.

Dina Cataldo (01:33):

Can you share for our listeners a little bit about you and what you specialize in?

Elena Deutsch (01:37):

Sure. So I founded a business called Will Women Interested in Leaving, and then the word big law between <laugh> interested in leaving. So the acronym is Will, but I help women lawyers who feel stuck, who feel unhappy, who wanna figure out what else they can do, either in the practice or out, really get clear, develop the confidence and the belief and the mindset that it's actually possible that they can do it without going broke and take the action to make all that happen. Hmm.

Dina Cataldo (02:11):

Yeah. Without going broke, that's definitely something we can talk about here today for sure. Tell me how you got into this.

Elena Deutsch (02:17):

So, I'm not a lawyer by training, and I think that's actually an asset that I bring this outside perspective as a lawyer coach who's not a lawyer. My dad was a lawyer and I always wanted to be one when I was a kid. And I would go with him to his office. He was a criminal defense attorney here in Manhattan where I live. And you know, I just, I would go to court with him. I just, he loved it so much. We would have mock trials around the dinner table, each of us, my mom, my dad, my brother and I each like, rotating roles of prosecutor, defense attorney, judge, and jury. Wow. And so I really thought I would be a lawyer until when I was 14. He didn't, my dad didn't come home one night and we were kind of like, where's Dad?

Elena Deutsch (03:07):

And I learned over the next few days and weeks that he had actually been arrested, that he was caught trying to embezzle money from a client. And he was disbarred, unfortunately, did not go to prison, but it was a real fall from Grace. And I have so much compassion and empathy for him now for, you know, you know, now we know, like you, you, you pick up the energy and the thoughts and beliefs of the five people you spend the most time around. He spent decades literally with criminals. Hmm. Helping, you know, people. He really believed people had the right to a fair trial. I think he really loved being a lawyer, but it really took him out.

Dina Cataldo (03:49):

That's such a fascinating story. And, you know, I think a lot of lawyers listening can relate to watching other lawyers in the profession kind of go down that path. I know that. I've seen that for sure in my experience. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I'm curious how that impacted you and your thoughts around the legal profession or what you were gonna do next.

Elena Deutsch (04:12):

Yeah. So when I was graduating college, it's sort of like he, he then had a really major health crisis. And so it just felt totally unsafe to me. I don't think I had the words for it, or it was super conscious at the time, but I just thought, you know, everyone is figuring out what they're doing after college. And friends are asking me, are you gonna go to law school? And I was like, no. I just knew it was a clear no. And I just had to really find my way. I knew I wanted to help people. I ended up going into nonprofit work and then getting a master's in public health. And when I just finished my MPHI discovered coaching, but I wasn't ready to, you know, take on a new professional kind of training. And so, but it, it planted a seed. And then the further I got along in my public health career, I just felt like something was missing. And I started taking classes at NYU where I did my coach training, and I just felt like, huh. The first time I was in a coaching class and I heard my teacher say, you know, her opening words, I was like, huh, I'm home.

Dina Cataldo (05:22):

Yeah. Isn't that interesting how that happens when you, you have to try a lot of different things oftentimes to get that feeling? I know I did for sure when I was trying to discover things other than the law of practice. I'm like, I, I don't, you know, it's not that I hated the law at all. I actually found it really fascinating. Yeah. And I knew there was something more, like, there was something pulling at me and I, and Yes. And that that takes, you know, a lot of courage looking back at, to try these different things and then to say, you know, this other thing, even though I'm making all my money as a lawyer, <laugh> Yes.

Elena Deutsch (06:01):

Yeah. This

Dina Cataldo (06:02):

Other thing, I could do it too. <Laugh>.

Elena Deutsch (06:04):

Yeah. You know, that's what I, and that's what I help people do. And so I think really my intention with Will is to help women lawyers. 'cause I would've been that person, I would've been, you, I would've had to have been like, oh, this isn't the right thing. But like, now what? I know, I would've felt stuck. I know I have a hard time making decisions. I know I would've felt beholden. And so that's, I just feel like I am in this unique per place to help my clients, to help women lawyers who do feel that like, shortcuts some of that pain and trial and error and help them get really clear on their skills, their interests, their values, and build what they want from there. And then develop the mindset and the muscle and the capacity <laugh> to believe that they can.

Dina Cataldo (06:51):

Yeah. Yeah. And

Elena Deutsch (06:52):

I'm, I'm laughing 'cause I'm just thinking about like, I actually have this little post-it note that I, I was working with a client yesterday. It says, dive Shop St. Martin. I mean, that's, that's if anyone's watching video says, and you know, so on one hand she's like, she's on a leave of absence from her job and she's trying to figure out, you know, next steps. And she's like, I want something stable. I'm not ready to make a big leap. But also I have these friends in St. Martin and she's a scuba diver who have a dive shop and they're like, come down, you can work for us. And so <laugh> and I, you know, I'm not advocating that she do that, and I'm also not advocating that she throw it out mm-hmm <affirmative>. I'm saying like, let's, let's look at all your options and prioritize where you wanna start exploring.

Dina Cataldo (07:40):

Yeah. And I think that brings me to a topic that I wanna make sure we cover, which is laying the foundation for that discovery of self, that discovery of your next potential path. For me, I know I needed to clean up a lot of things as a lawyer before I could move forward. I didn't know that until I started trying all these things. And then all the overwhelm came out and the frustrations came out and the lack of time management and all of this lack of emotional management. Like, I didn't know that that was an issue Yeah. Until I started like feeling pulled in these areas. But when I, I saw it, I was like, oh, let's clean this up. And when I did, it made it so much easier for me to manage my life and a business I was growing on top of it. So I'm curious what you see in that arena and what your thoughts are on that.

Elena Deutsch (08:36):

That's, that's so great. And I'm like, I'm, and I'm curious how you did that. Like if you had coaching, if you had help, if you had support. Because I think so many of the women who come to me, they're, they're quite overwhelmed and frustrated when they get to me. They're, they're either working so much, they don't know how they're gonna have the time to figure it out to do all that cleanup. They don't, they don't even know that they have to like you were in that place. Also, they don't even know that they have this mindset work to do. And I actually, I actually just was on a call with some former clients. We were talking about, we did a little panel discussion about my continuation program because some people continue with me for years. Yeah. Even after they make that initial career change. And you know, Gwen Gwen said this what Gwen said, you know, I had no idea there was so much mindset work to, to a career change. I just thought it was all gonna be like resume and LinkedIn <laugh>. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (09:36):

Right.

Elena Deutsch (09:36):

Well, we start with your energy. We start with how depleted you are. We start with, you know, patching up those energy leaks. We start with reducing your anxiety. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. We start with setting boundaries just like super gentle, slowly, slowly. Then mindset work. And we define, you know, what is mindset. I think it's a buzzword, you know, we coaches use. But I think if you're not familiar with it and it's just really shifting your thoughts, it's just shifting your thoughts so you can access more expansive feelings and take new action and get new results. Yeah. so it starts with, with those components.

Dina Cataldo (10:14):

Yeah. And to answer your question, yeah. At first I did not have a coach. Right? Yeah. So when I first feeling started feeling this tug to do something different, I just happened upon it by reviewing some journal entries. And my journal entries kept saying, you know, bucket list, start a business. And I'm like, why am I avoiding this? And I noticed it was because of fear. And so I, and I had a whole history of my dad had a failed business, you know, when I was growing up. And so my brain said that wasn't safe. Right. But I knew that's what I needed. So I started going through well, what could I do? I figured out a loose leaf tea business. That was my first stop. Right. I love that. I love that. What can I do? What do I know how to do?

Dina Cataldo (10:57):

I can build a store online. You know, I can do that while I'm working full-time. I can, I have friends who are designers. I'm good at blending teas, all that stuff. So I was really good at the doing because I was an overachiever, overworking, burned out lawyer. Yeah. Who knew how to push through all of the feelings, not even knowing that I had feelings. So I was really good at working. I was a workhorse. I could stay up all night long and get stuff done. Yeah. And it felt horrible, but I didn't really notice it in my body as much until I started noticing little things that I would do, like rushing to work in the morning. And I just started noticing like, wow, this feels horrible. So I changed my morning routine. I made myself into a morning person and I'm like, whoa, wait a minute.

Dina Cataldo (11:45):

If I can do this, what else can I do? And so I started learning how to manage my time and I'm like, wait a minute, I can do this. And then I started getting into chills. Yeah. <laugh>, I started getting more into the business because I had more time and more energy and more Yeah. Ability to focus on it. And that's what took me into the coaching world because all I had been aware of were business, podcasts, business coaches. Yeah. And so I went into that business coaching world and lo and behold, they were teaching the same things, the same things I was learning by a hand. Right. Like, kind of like, kind of trying to figure it out, like in the dark, which is how do you manage your time, your emotions Yeah. Your abilities. Like to, to do those things, your focus, all of that. And so coaching was like this awakening for me. And when I entered this world, I said, oh my gosh, everybody needs a coach. I need a coach. Totally. And I was totally scared to sign up for my first coach. 'cause I was like, I have no idea what you guys do, but I am in, because I see the results other people are getting and I know there's something here. Like, I just felt this draw to it. Yes.

Elena Deutsch (12:56):

Yes.

Dina Cataldo (12:58):

Exactly. And that was, that was what really got me going.

Elena Deutsch (13:00):

Exactly. Me too. Me too. Just like there was something here for me. That's such a great story. I love, and like everyone's path to it is, is different, is unique, you know? Yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So, and, and I just, just one thing, I mean, I, I do business coaching now for people also, but it's all coaching <laugh>. Oh, yeah. You know, I do something as I call business clairvoyance coaching. I'm really using my intuition and my years of experience as an entrepreneur and helping them mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, push like, for, especially for business owners who are, who are are stuck or struggling, they've established a little bit, but they, they wanna grow. Yeah. But it's all coaching, which is Yeah. Which is I think really just like, like you're saying, helping people shift their mindset, get clear, focus on what's important and not, I think the core thing about coaching is not letting life drive us mm-hmm <affirmative>. But, but starting to be more proactive like you were doing with your mornings and starting a business and you're like, oh, I can change this. I'm not just at the whim and the mercy of everything that's coming at me. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. I think coaching is like shifting into that, that stance

Dina Cataldo (14:16):

Yeah. Of

Elena Deutsch (14:17):

Being more in the driver's seat intentionally in your life.

Dina Cataldo (14:21):

Yeah. And I also just, I wanna throw this out there because one of the things that as lawyers we do, and I think as humans we do, is we get into our patterns of day to day, and we begin to think that that's the limits of reality. Totally. And when we get stuck in what we believe are the limits of reality, we close ourself off to all those possibilities. So one of the things that, I love it, you know, we, we talk about, well we've had con we've had a private conversation outside of the podcast where we really talked a lot about intuition and, and like how we really connect with energy and source and all of that. And that was a really, that's a really fun conversation for me. I didn't start there. Yeah. Like, I really started in the, the, like, let's see if, if I were using a hammer and a nail, like those kinds of like physical reality type to try to get change going in my life.

Dina Cataldo (15:13):

Yes. And then when I got into, you know, coaching, it coincided with this almost like this awakening or this energetic flow that began happening in my body and in my life. And I saw that change. And I'm just now starting to speak more to that in the podcast. I think that the people who've been following me for a while kind of know I'm like on that side of things where yeah, I understand energetics and all of that good stuff, but I don't talk about it a ton. And it's okay to shift, right. Because right now I'm in a transition period Yeah. In a coaching practice. Right. And I think that it's to link 'em together. You don't have to stay a static person. Right. You get to shift no matter what you decide, you always get to change. You always get to totally shift what you wanna do. Yeah. Even if it comes from like, you're a lawyer right now and you don't like the particular practice area you're in. I'll just share a block that I had is I couldn't even see beyond the kind of law I was practicing. Yes. I just felt so stuck that no way out. So I'm curious, do you find people come to you and they're just like, I'm totally stuck. I have zero idea of what I wanna do. Totally. I just know that something feels off.

Elena Deutsch (16:31):

Totally. A hundred percent. I'll share a couple of anecdotes. So one was a woman named Leah, who's actually gonna be featured on my podcast this week. Leah, Leah Jennings. She's now also her handle now is at author Ellie Jennings. So that is a little clue as to where she landed. But she, when she came to, she was an m and a attorney, she's like, I thought I would be in big law for 30 years. I didn't know what else I could do. And, you know, the, the way my program is structured, the way I work with people, it's very, very structured. And I, I am not the most structured person, but this very step-by-step linear process came through me for lawyers mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it really gives them a toe hold one at a time on how to walk a path to figure out what else you could do.

Elena Deutsch (17:21):

And through that, she, she opened up that she wanted to be a writer. She really op discovered that for herself consciously, and said it out loud. And then, you know, I was super encouraging. I'm like, it, look, I really believe if you can become a lawyer, if you can go through three years of law school and pass a bar exam and practice law for however long, and bill those hours and deal with all the things you can do anything <laugh>. Yeah. So I, I was like, great, let's go. And and, and you know, it was a process for her. She left the big firm. She went to an in-house role, but that gave her the time and the space to go to yoga classes, to recover her health, to take writing classes. And then I sometimes run a mastermind called the Creator Circle, where we go through the Julia Cameron book, the Artist's Way, and the timing was right. So she joined that, and then she really, she really started writing and she published her first novel last year. Oh

Dina Cataldo (18:23):

Wow.

Elena Deutsch (18:24):

And she like slayed me. She dedicated it to me. I could not.

Dina Cataldo (18:30):

Oh my gosh. How amazing.

Elena Deutsch (18:32):

I know she said to Elena, this book exists because of you.

Dina Cataldo (18:37):

Hmm. That's so,

Elena Deutsch (18:38):

And, and I share that like in the hopes that there's someone listening to this who's a writer, who is the, a lawyer, who's the dream of being a writer who doesn't believe that you can do it. And you know, there are people out here like you and I and lots of other lawyer coaches who are like, let's, let's go. You can.

Dina Cataldo (18:56):

Yeah. And honestly, it's so interesting because sometimes I'll hear from lawyers, well, your life just seems so easy now. Like, and it's because you're not a lawyer and anymore. Right. And I'm like, that's actually not true. <Laugh>.

Elena Deutsch (19:13):

Yeah. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (19:14):

It's not true that my life is so amazing because I'm not a lawyer. My life was amazing when I was a lawyer, but that's because I got coaching. I figured out how to manage my time and my energy and like figured out what was important to me. And then when I laid a foundation for me to leave, and yeah. It was scary leaving. Yes. That's something that you need a coach to help you with. Like, I, I needed a coach to help me with that. So that was really helpful. And then when I went into, you know, practicing full-time, it's not that it's easier, it's different. You're still spending hours doing something different within the business. Whether you're a writer writing and you're sitting and maybe you have writer's block and you gotta get through that, or totally creating content for a podcast or reels or like those kinds of things. And, and, you know, conquering writer's block that. Well,

Elena Deutsch (20:05):

There's, there's, yeah. There's so much. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Dina Cataldo (20:08):

No, it's, it's not like, yeah. So it's not as if it is easy doing something other than being a lawyer. But what what you will discover is that if you find something that's more in alignment with who you are and who you want to be in the world, that that's what makes all the difference. It doesn't have anything to do with the profession. It has to do if that profession is in alignment with what you want.

Elena Deutsch (20:31):

Totally. And I, there's, so, that's such a rich example. Thank you. And, and I think what's so hard for so many lawyers is figuring out what is in alignment with what I want. What are my skills? What are my interests? What are my values? What, what are the specifics of what I want in my life? Do, do I wanna work fully, remotely? Do I, do I, do I want something that's steady? Could I do some gig lawyering while I, while I, while I go down to St. Martin and explore the dive shop? You know, like, so I just think that's what I think about that. It's, it's really, you don't, if you don't know how to figure that out, that's what coaches like me and you and other coaches are here for. The other thing is, look, starting a business is not for everyone. Yeah. Becoming an entrepreneur is not for everyone. And it is, it has gotta be a, you have to have a problem that, you know, you can help people solve. And even when you're passionate about it, like I am, trust me, I've had my ups and downs with my business. It's been like eight years now, and there have been dark nights of the soul

Dina Cataldo (21:42):

<Laugh>,

Elena Deutsch (21:44):

Can I keep going doing this even though I love it, even though it's valuable because it's, it's a different kind of hard Yeah. And it has to be the, the right hard for you.

Dina Cataldo (21:56):

Yeah. And you know, it's so interesting when you talk about wanting and what do you want, I think that's one of the most difficult questions for people to answer. And when I'm on a call with somebody and I say, what do you want for your business? Let's just talk about it five years out. And they have a blank stare. They have no idea what they want. Yeah. And so really it becomes like a, a question by question developing, shaping a future that isn't just incrementally different or better than what you have that's just like, oh, well that seems realistic and that seems like maybe that that could be something I could do. Versus No, what do you want? Totally. What would you like to have in life?

Elena Deutsch (22:41):

Yeah. And I think that's the place a coach can really expand you, you know, because we do, like you were saying, we have this limited perception of reality. And, and I mean, I say to some of my clients think, especially my mastermind people I've worked with, I'm like, I mean, the great creator created all of this. Like, everything's actually available. Yeah. Right. And it might not feel like it at this moment, but this actually is all here for us. Yeah. And, and you might not see your path to it, but especially for my people who wanna go out on their own or starting businesses, like, and, and I think as for people and for women and people socialized as female, like really can struggle with what do you want and not being the people pleasing good girl and just doing the thing that gets you the good grades and the gold stars, because that's, you know, you're used to those added girls.

Dina Cataldo (23:38):

Yeah. That, and what I've noticed too is that what can limit us is our scarcity. Right. And you, you alluded to it there is that, hey, this abundance is here for all of us. The universe created all of this, and it's like, it's here for us. That's our natural state if we can tap into it. And part of that is allowing ourselves to have desires, allowing ourselves to, to think differently. But the thing that can close us off is believing that that is closed off to us. That exactly. That is not for us, that we can only do what we've been taught to do and not learn a new skill. And I think, you know, there's so many limiting beliefs about around this, but one is the sunk cost fallacy I hear all the time. Right. It's like, all the time I spent so much money on law school, how could I possibly leave? Right. I need to at least pay off my bills.

 

Elena Deutsch (24:34):

Right? Yeah. So IIII, the sunk cost fallacy is such a big one. And, and I've been in seeing it in sort of women saying like, it feels ex extravagant to invest in myself in coaching.

Dina Cataldo (24:48):

Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Elena Deutsch (24:50):

And it's like, I'm like, well, you invested $200,000 or more, whatever it was in law school. I mean, I don't, I don't, that's not the conversation we typically have, but it's just, I sometimes I think that is like, well, you actually have invested a lot in yourself, and do you wanna keep going down that path? I heard this good thing about this cause fallacy. Tell, tell me if you think this is a useful analogy for the people you that, like, do you continue reading a book if you really don't like it, or Yeah. Or do you continue watching a movie if you hate it?

 

Dina Cataldo (25:25):

Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the perfect example. I mean, I'm always like, oh, I'm not reading the rest. I go to the library a lot and I get library books and I'm like, me too. I don't wanna read it. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna fit this or middle of a movie. I'm out. Right. And I think that it's really important to notice when we are, well, I guess I'll just, this is good enough. This is fine.

 

Elena Deutsch (25:46):

That's right. That's right. And I think that connects back to the lack mentality you were speaking of. And look, I do a lot of my own mindset work. I, I work on expanding and tapping into this abundance. It's easy to say it's all out there for, for me to, I struggle with tapping into it also. So that's, that's always gonna be part of my growth edge. Yeah. but yeah, I think that that giving ourself the permission to not live a just good enough life is a huge, a huge one. And that's the opportunity cost. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Right. That's where the sunk cost is. Like, okay, do you wanna keep going down this path that's making you sick and miserable and unhappy and crying and like, you're failing on all fronts Yeah. Because you invest that money. Or do you want to invest some time and energy and Yes. Money in seeing how you can leverage all that experience, nothing's ever wasted. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. You'll always be a lawyer. I wrote this thing today, I was like, you'll always be a lawyer, but you don't always have to practice law.

 

Dina Cataldo (26:53):

Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's, I'll share that when I was on my path, figuring out what I wanted to do next, it costs money. Yeah. <Laugh>, right? Yes. Like, you need to learn skills. You need, like, for me, I definitely wanted help, so I got a coach. It's not free. Yeah. And, and those investments in myself, I look at back at it now, and I'm so thankful because I showed myself how valuable I believed I was, how worthy I was of having the change that I wanted, how worthy I was of having the life that I wanted. And now when I see myself hesitate, it's not because I don't think I'm not worthy, it's because I'm doing math. It's just straight up math. It's like, does this make sense for me? Because what am I gonna get the return on the investment? What am I expecting? It's very unemotional. Versus before I might feel fear, you know, investing in myself, but knowing it was the right thing and moving forward with it always felt good after like, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so thankful that I did that for myself. Yeah.

 

Elena Deutsch (28:10):

Yeah. I I that's so great. You're in that place. I just, I have a lot of compassion for, for women lawyers who are like, they're really struggling with that. Yeah. They're like, wow, that's a lot of money to invest in myself. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well, what? And so, and I, you know, sometimes we, well, and we'll coach through it sometimes and I'll ask, you know, and it's, it's especially poignant when I might ask, you know, if one of your kids needed a service like this to, if they're a parent and you know, would, what would you say to their, of course, I'd do this for them.

Dina Cataldo (28:50):

Yeah.

Elena Deutsch (28:50):

Yeah. And they can struggle with doing it for themselves.

Dina Cataldo (28:53):

Yeah. And it's also interesting how often we tend to delegate our authority to other people.

Elena Deutsch (29:01):

Oh,

 

Dina Cataldo (29:01):

Yeah. And I see that too, with a lot of women who say like, well, I need to talk to my husband. And like, these are breadwinners, these are people who make very good money. Yeah. And I just, you know, I've never been in that position where I was ever, you know, like, oh, I need to talk to somebody. You know, that was never me. It was always me in charge of, of everything in my life. Right. As I, you know, yeah. I have, I've never been married, I've never shared those decision yeah. Thoughts with somebody else. And so I've always made it a point to be like, no, I'm gonna make a decision about this. But a lot of people don't have that practice of making a decision for themselves.

Elena Deutsch (29:42):

Exactly. And I, and I, you know, I, I just, there's, there's no judgment around this, right. Everyone's in the place that they're in. Right. And everyone, and I just, it's, I think there is something, there's so much social conditioning that, you know, around giving away our power as women. And I do think law firm life really can reinforce that of like, you have to be available when we say you're available, you have to jump. When we say jump. And you say how high? And, and I remember speaking to one of my clients when, you know, on a consultation and she's like, I like being a lawyer. I just like, I can't be available 24 7 anymore. It just is killing me. And so, you know, just taking that stand. And she, she did enroll in our work together and she ended up staying at her firm and making partner, but she also loves to read books and go to the library.

 

Elena Deutsch (30:48):

And now, you know, one of the things she said to me on that initial call is, I haven't read a book in five years and I love reading. Yeah. And, which is so heartbreaking. And then when we spoke, you know, a year or so after our work together, sometimes I just check in with people. Yeah. And she's like, Elena, I just got back from the library and I've got a stack of books. And you know, she, she, she made that choice for herself. But it's, it's not easy when culture and your firms and everything is like conditioning you to, to not really feel like fully an agency over your own life.

Dina Cataldo (31:27):

Yeah. That's,

Elena Deutsch (31:28):

That's what I think we're here to help shift them into. Yeah. And I think, I think that desire is under the surface, which is why someone might be listening to this or reaching out for coaching.

 

Dina Cataldo (31:40):

Yeah. I mean, and I, and for me it was, it wasn't a conscious thing when I started reaching out for help. It was like, oh no, this feels right. Like, there's something right about it. I don't know what it is. I can't, you know, pinpoint it. But, you know, following that little voice, it has served me way more than not <laugh>. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that, you know, sometimes we wanna follow.

 

Elena Deutsch (32:07):

Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's back to like that kind of intuition and energy, and there's such a heavy emphasis on the brain and logic. Yeah. And not listening to the wisdom of our heart or those whispers of our soul and our, or our intuition. And I'm into the work of Dr. Joe Dispenza. Are you, are you Yeah, yeah. A doctorate. Right. So for sure. So I've been listening to his book, supernatural. I was supposed to go to his retreat in Los Angeles, which was postponed because of the fires. And you know, there's there other cultures used to rely on the heart as, as the main brain, we actually have brain cells in our heart Yeah. And in our guts. So science is corroborating some of what intuitives or mystics or woo woo people,

Dina Cataldo (32:56):

Or even native peoples, like this isn't native. Yeah, totally. This isn't, isn't whoa woo, this is like grounded in the natural world. But we have detached ourselves so much from that, that we are no longer in connection with those parts of our heritage

Elena Deutsch (33:13):

Exactly. Of, of being human and connected to the earth. Yeah. So you know, and I think the law also really cultivates that thinking is is king. Yeah. And you know, you're gonna solve everything with your brain and detaching from your body and just sit and work and work and work and don't take bathroom breaks and Yeah. You know, collect the six minute bags of money and Yeah. You know, and, and, and getting people back into their bodies is part of, part of the work that I do with people too.

 

Dina Cataldo (33:47):

Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think that's a one a hundred percent requirement when, whenever we're making any change, like whether you're thinking about a transition in your work or if you want to build your business as is, or if you, whatever it is you want, build your relationship better and stronger than before. It requires change. And so that's gonna bring up a lot of emotions. And in our society, we have not been taught how to deal with an emotion. It's just, especially lawyers. Right. It's just like, push it aside, work harder, suck it up, buttercup. Keep moving.

 

Elena Deutsch (34:24):

Yeah. Yeah. I, I just was having this really interesting conversation with a couple of my clients about the word defiance actually. And, and sometimes in, in our coaching, like, like you were saying anger, anger can come up, emotions can come up and squash it down, squash it down. And I like to say that anger is information that our values have been violated.

Dina Cataldo (34:50):

Exactly. Exactly.

Elena Deutsch (34:52):

And it doesn't mean to act in a way that's angry and it doesn't mean to yell or behave badly, it just is information to pay attention to. And then this client was saying she was reading a or listen to a Harvard Business Review podcast about defiance, and that defiance is actually really standing in your values. And I think anger is sort of the information and then defiance of saying, no, I'm not gonna be that way anymore. I'm not gonna work all night. No, I'm not available while I'm on vacation. Is, is a, can be a defiant move. And that defiance is actually standing in your values and, and not backing down.

 

Dina Cataldo (35:38):

Yeah. That's so interesting, that word defiance because it has so many different tenors to it. Right. But when you say that to me, in the way that you've described it, it to me is standing in your personal power. Yes. In your ability to say, yes, this is for me. No, this isn't for me. I'm not gonna just agree with what you say if I disagree with it. Right. And then defiance, when I hear that word, it's almost, it puts it put me for just a, a heartbeat into that. Oh, that parental childlike, you know oh, interesting phenomenon, right. Where it's like that, oh, you're being defiant. Right. So if you're a parent listening to this, you might say, oh, she's being defiant. But it's Oh, that's so interesting. Maybe it's, it's in, not in alignment with what they believe. And so then there's a values violation and to think about like, where is that violation? Yes. Yeah. That's really good. I like that.

 

Elena Deutsch (36:38):

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was good. So I'm glad you enjoyed that nugget. Good. Ah, good. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Dina Cataldo (36:44):

So where do you, when you think about lawyers who are playing with this idea of a different life, doing something different, where do you, after they've kind of figured out where they wanna play, where they wanna discover things, what's another foundational area? I'm thinking, you know, finances is a big one because Yeah. We're so tied to the, the golden handcuffs, right. That Yeah. You know, we get paid so well as lawyers and then when you first start out in any endeavor, you are likely not gonna be making the exact same amount as a lawyer. Yeah. I definitely wasn't. I've built myself to that point, but it's, it takes time. So I'm curious, what, how do you talk through that conversation with somebody who's probably really scared to let go of something that has bas they can probably attribute to the roof over their head?

Elena Deutsch (37:41):

Totally. It's a huge barrier to getting started with the work. I think it's a major conscious and unconscious or subconscious belief that I'm going to go from my big law salary or my legal salary to zero is often the mindset <laugh>. And so that's, so we do some, right. Which is like, well, you know, like actually if you have another job lined up, you're, you're probably not gonna go to zero. Or you might take a break and maybe you'll get paid out your PTO or you'll get some, you know, you have vacation time saved up, whatever. Like, so we, we, we work through both the mindset and the practicalities.

Dina Cataldo (38:22):

Yeah. Right.

Elena Deutsch (38:23):

Of, but, but first it's mindset first. Right. Always mindset first and, and how does that feel in your body? 'cause If you're shut down in your body, you're not gonna take action too. Right? Yeah. And then, then for the deeper strategic financial planning, that's not my area of expertise. I refer people to someone like Jessica Medina or Roe Thomas mm-hmm <affirmative>. There are some wonderful lawyer coaches, financial coaches out there Yeah. Who can really crunch the numbers with you. And many of my clients have worked with Jessica and you know, and it's really helped them see that they can make changes

Dina Cataldo (39:02):

Yeah. Rose been here on the podcast before, and I mean, I think that even the basics of being able to say, okay, what is a budget? What is, what do I want my budget to look like? Which is just your allocation of funds. So if the word budget triggers you Yeah. It's just your allocation of funds. Like where do you want your funds to go every month? Right. And then when you do your allocation of funds, then you know, okay, this is how much I want to make every month. Maybe I wanna add a little more in there. Maybe I wanna take, you know, clean up some other things. Maybe I have too many TV subscriptions that you're no longer gonna wanna have anyway. 'cause You're gonna be doing a new endeavor. But when I did this work, I, I think I skipped over a lot of the foundational stuff. Like if I were to do it over again, I would've looked at my allocation of funds, I would've said, okay, maybe I'll stay in my career a little bit longer. You know, but I was just, so, I, I had this sense that if I didn't just burn the boats, I could stay in the law indefinitely. Yeah. And so I just said, Nope, I have, I have funds, I'm, I'm willing to withdraw from retirement accounts. Yeah,

Elena Deutsch (40:12):

Exactly.

Dina Cataldo (40:13):

Do what I

Elena Deutsch (40:13):

Gotta do. Willing to do. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a client who, she quit her job without having something lined up, which I don't, I don't, you know, I don't recommend or not recommend. It's, it's a totally personal decision, but she's like, I am done trying to twist myself into a pretzel. I am, I am done trying to make this work. And she had been saying for so long, six more months, six more months if I just stick, if I could just stay for six more months if I can just stay through and get the bonus. And then it's that carrot that's always dangling. Yeah. And she finally said my life is worth more than whatever they're paying me.

Dina Cataldo (40:49):

Yeah. And that really, I think can be the deciding factor is do I wanna continue living out of alignment? Yeah. Because it does not feel good living out of alignment. Yeah. If you're feeling anything other than I feel good about what I'm doing and the way I'm moving forward, then it's just time to take a look. Yeah. Take a peek at what's going on.

Elena Deutsch (41:11):

Yeah. Yeah. And she had, she had to burn the boats too. She had to, she just had to get out. And now she's la and she was really intentional with her interview process, and that was something we worked on mm-hmm <affirmative>. And she, she truly made it every interview a two-way street, and she owned her authority. And, you know, that takes work also when you've left big law without another job lined up. And she definitely encountered some people saying things like, well, how I never would've done that. Like, how could you have left? Like judgment from others? She's like, okay, this is not a place I wanna work mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when she was really the most real and the most authentic about what she needs, what she's looking for. And she has found a great fit culture first company that she's just started up this week and she's super excited.

Dina Cataldo (42:02):

Yeah. And I, I also just wanna share for anybody who, 'cause I've, I've had clients like this before who've considered jumping ship Yeah. But it was a reaction Yeah. Versus taking time like she was being coached. So she was able to, to get coaching and like calmer nervous system Yeah. And understand that jumping ship didn't make sense. Yeah. Like jumping ship was actually gonna be the same hours at less pay. And the only difference was, is it didn't have a billing structure. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So you're gonna be working the same amount of hours and you're gonna be making less money that is not in alignment with what you want in your five year plan. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Elena Deutsch (42:43):

Exactly.

Dina Cataldo (42:44):

Let's take a look at this. Let's calm it all down. Let's, let's do some tweaks here versus you making this big move that's gonna have a, a really big financial detriment to you and your family.

Elena Deutsch (42:58):

Yeah. Yeah. And this, this, again, this person, like, I don't, I don't advocate for peop people to make those decisions. Sure. I mean, I'm there to be the sounding board to help them think it through to help them kick the tires. You know, and she was really prepared. She really had, she had really, she had taken a leave of absence. She had gone back she'd renegotiated her role and who she was willing to work with and what she was willing to work on, what she wasn't. She worked with Jessica, she got her finances really in order. Yeah. And then she was, she was ready to make that leap. And, you know, I just, I, it's, it's courageous. It's not for everyone. And I just think there's no one right or wrong way to do this. You know? Yeah. I've had other people go from one job Right. To another and then continue their burnout and continue to carry their big law practices in an in-house role or a non-legal role. And, you know, and then we still have coaching work to do around that.

Dina Cataldo (43:58):

And, and, you know, just, just kind of as we close out, I also want to let anybody know that it sometimes takes some time to find the right fit for you. Oh yeah. I think I tried like 15 different types of things, you know, to kind of figure out, okay, where do I wanna channel my energy? Is it painting, is it tea? Is it, you know, doing teaching yoga? Is it, you know, so I went through all these different paths trying to discover what interested me and in the process of doing that Yeah. Is when I clicked with coaching Yeah. And decided I wanted to become a coach. It wasn't that I just knew Oh yes. Immediately it was like, oh no, I needed to, to do the things. And then it took me, oh my gosh, my coach must have been so frustrated with me. I was probably like the toughest client he's ever had. My head was so hard. You no idea, Elena. Anyway, so by the end of a year working with my first coach, yeah. That's when I came to the realization that, oh, you know, I think I wanna be a coach. I was, I think a year

Elena Deutsch (44:57):

Year was pretty fast for a lawyer to go from lawyer to coach.

Dina Cataldo (45:01):

Well, well, it wasn't just a year. It was a year. And all the work I put in

Elena Deutsch (45:04):

Wasn all the work I had done. Yeah. So that's, and I mean, so in closing out for me, I, I wanna say that's great, and that was your process and it got you where you needed to go, and that was your path. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And everyone's path is unique. Yeah. And I, I do think, like I totally believe the women lawyers I work with, they, they can leave on their own. They can get there. Yeah. But I, I, I firmly believe that the work we do helps them shortcut it makes it easier and it breaks the isolation and the, like, what's the matter with me that I can't figure this out? And the process I take people through, they, they end up with a short list of priorities that they can then vet and kick the tires on and maybe take a class or fo job shadow someone here or there so that they can hopefully streamline

Dina Cataldo (45:54):

Yeah.

Elena Deutsch (45:55):

That transition. And not that there isn't sometimes like the step, the stair stepping down, kind of like Leah leaving m and a and going in-house and then expanding her writing. But it just, it just, that was like a pretty, it was, that was a more direct path. And I had to, I had to weave in Bob throughout my twenties and thirties and I wanna help people kind of take that shortcut.

Dina Cataldo (46:20):

Yeah. And the reason I share that story is because it's normal to feel frustrated. Yes. So if you, if you're telling yourself you're listening to this and you're telling yourself, no, I've kind of been thinking about it a really long time. There's a difference between thinking about it and trying new things. Yes. And so you've actually gotta go out and you've gotta try things. And it might get frustrating because you're like, oh my gosh, I tried this thing and it's, it's not what I want. And then you still gotta try more things. So it's not just you try one thing and it doesn't fit, it's a No, I keep trying things on just like I'm going into a dressing room trying on new outfits to see what feels good to you.

Elena Deutsch (46:57):

Right, right. A hundred percent. And it's just also like, are you just going shopping with the, the aim of I don't, I don't know what I wanna buy. Or are you going in to buy a new down coat? You know? Yeah. And you wanna try on the down coats. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's if I think for some people helping sort of narrow that, that field of experimentation. Yeah. I think especially for people who are later in life, career changers, you know, they, they feel, I'm working with a woman now who's in her mid fifties and she's, she, she is done being a lawyer in the way she was, but she is not done working. She's like, I wanna figure out my next thing. And she's, she's good to go. You know, she wants to figure it out and get going. So Yeah. Everyone's, everyone's path is different.

Dina Cataldo (47:52):

Yeah. And I think that's what's so beautiful. And, and, and it's supposed to be that way. We're supposed to be different. So if you're looking to other people totally. To say, oh, that's the path I should be taking, which is something I think I did early on, is like, oh, look at this person. What was their path? Versus looking at it as, oh, that's interesting. That's one option. You know? Right. It's the way.

Elena Deutsch (48:15):

Right. And what, and what feels good to me. Like you're saying when, when you try things on and you're like, what does this align with my, with what I want for my life? Just this aligned with my values and my interests. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (48:28):

You know, do you have any last words of wisdom you wanna share?

Elena Deutsch (48:32):

Just you can do it. You can do it. Yeah. Yes, you can. Like, whatever it is, whatever, it's, you can figure out what it is you want. Even if you don't know you can make a change. You can make your law practice healthier and, and more fun and more joyful. And I have, I've got clients also who opened their own businesses and I was, maybe I'll close with this. So two people I worked with I did a little panel discussion. They started their own law firms and, you know, that's what they wanted to do. And they're both working less hours, making the same or more money and feeling really aligned. So whatever you want, it's, it's possible.

Dina Cataldo (49:19):

It absolutely is. Like, it absolutely is. I just, you know, I, anybody listening to this and you're having any doubts which are totally normal, know that anything you want is possible, really is okay. Can you please share all the goodness about where people can find you, where your podcast share all the good things. I'm gonna link to all of them in the show notes.

Elena Deutsch (49:43):

Thank you so much. First of all, just thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun. We could, we could keep talking about all

Dina Cataldo (49:50):

This. Oh my gosh. I wanna talk about energy work. Work.

Elena Deutsch (49:53):

We can, we can, we can do that. Or after I come back from Sedona, I'll give you a call.

Dina Cataldo (49:58):

Yes. 

Elena Deutsch (49:59):

So I'm leading a retreat for nine will members in Sedona next week, which I'm just so honored and, and touched by and so excited to be together in person with people. And the, my website is really the hub. So w www women interested in leaving law.com. Again, you don't have to leave the practice, but it's really about helping you figure out what you do want. And my podcast, you can find it on all the podcasts platforms and it's will WILL then with a hyphen, women Interested in Leaving Law Podcast.

Dina Cataldo (50:39):

Beautiful. And

Elena Deutsch (50:40):

On Apple and Spotify is, you know, please come on down rate and write a review if you like what you hear. But more importantly like, share an episode with a woman lawyer who you know is feeling stuck and unhappy. Mm. Yeah. And I'll just close with this. I was looking at the podcast data recently 'cause I'm, it's all new to me. I just started the podcast in November and I can't wait to have you on. And and the time that most people are listening is 3:00 AM

Dina Cataldo (51:10):

Isn't that fascinating?

Elena Deutsch (51:13):

So send this to send it to a friend who you know is waking up in the middle of the night.

Dina Cataldo (51:18):

You know, I literally got a text from a friend who heard me at another podcast Yeah. At like four in the morning. She's like, I know it's really early, but I had to say hi <laugh>.

Elena Deutsch (51:30):

Yeah. My heart kind of sunk for that. Yeah.

Dina Cataldo (51:34):

Yeah. And it's, it's, it's like people desire voices that speak to them in a way that resonate. And I was that person when I first started listening to podcasts. And that's why I started a podcast is 'cause I wanted to be that person for somebody else.

Elena Deutsch (51:53):

That's so beautiful. Thank you.

Dina Cataldo (51:56):

Hmm. Alright. Thank you so much for being here.

Elena Deutsch (51:58):

Thank you.