#340:  The Key to Effective Team Management with Penny Zenker

#340: The Key to Effective Team Management with Penny Zenker

Dina Cataldo (00:14):

Hello everybody. I have a really special guest for you today. Honey Zanker is a speaker business strategy coach and productivity expert who has more than 20 years of experience founding, running and scaling multimillion dollar organizations. She's written a book called The Reset Mindset that Stephen Covey said gives a simple method for responding quickly to the changing needs of people, markets, and stakeholders, while at the same time increasing trust through mindful touchpoints. She has also done a TEDx talk that has been viewed over a million times. I have brought her on here. Thank you, penny, for being here to talk to you about teams and team building and leadership in your practice. Welcome to be a Better Lawyer. Penny.

 

Penny Zenker (01:03):

Thanks for having me, Dina. I'm excited.

 

Dina Cataldo (01:05):

Oh, I'm so glad you're here. I also wanna make sure that we plug your podcast 'cause you have a podcast of your own. Can you tell us about it?

 

Penny Zenker (01:14):

Sure. it's called Take Back Time, which we just had you on. So that's how we also met and had a great conversation. And it's in the top 2% podcast worldwide. So, and we talk about everything about working smarter. So we, we cover different realms of resilience and business building and team building leadership, different topics.

 

Dina Cataldo (01:39):

Yes, I was very excited to have that conversation with you. So I know that after our conversation there that we had a nice little segue into talking about teams and team building and some of the problems I've seen when I talk to lawyers. And you have lots of experience in this as well. So I wanted to bring you on to get your perspective and to give that to our listeners here today, because I know that there's so many lawyers out there who are stressing about their teams and they're, they maybe don't have the skills that they need Mm-Hmm. To manage themselves so that they're managing their time and their energy and managing a growing team. So, I wanted to ask you just as a foundational point, when you work with companies, what do you see as some of the biggest problems that come up when you're talking to them about their teams?

 

Penny Zenker (02:35):

Well, you kind of just mentioned one, one of the biggest problems is people say they just don't have time to lead. They're so busy, right. Trying to accomplish the goals and the, and the tasks in their role that that they're overwhelmed. And so, you know, they start to do things that break down trust, unfortunately, as a result. So maybe they, they cancel their one-on-ones. Maybe they start, they set up a meeting and then they don't show up, or they show up late, right? And, and so all this pressure and all the things that they have going on without really recognizing it, it's, it's having a ripple effect, a negative ripple effect on on the people that they're working with. So it, it breaks down trust. So building trust is, is an issue. And creating alignment is an issue. It's also another major thing that I see is that people in the team say that they're really struggling with competing priorities. And what that tells me is it's not just them who can't set priorities. They're not given the authority and the criteria that they need in order to determine this is more important than that. Right. And, and that comes from a leadership perspective. So those are some of the, the top ones you know, that, that I'm seeing.

 

Dina Cataldo (04:00):

Yeah. That is exactly what I see with lawyers who, especially when they, they try this at first and they say, okay, well, I'm gonna try to set up a meeting every week. And then they don't show up for the meeting, and then they say, oh, you know what? I just don't have time this week. We'll put it off to the next week. And then they wonder why their assistant or their associate doesn't really think it's gonna happen. Doesn't really plan for, it doesn't even expect it to happen because there's been this breakdown in the belief that you're actually gonna show up for your meeting and that it's actually gonna be a productive meeting when you're there.

 

Penny Zenker (04:39):

So, absolutely.

 

Dina Cataldo (04:40):

Yeah. So tell me, when you're working with leaders in these kinds of the positions that you've worked with, where you start foundationally with them to help them understand, you know, where they are and how to even get to the first step of where they wanna be.

 

Penny Zenker (04:59):

Well, you and I are very similar in, in one of our approaches is the first thing is, let's look at where you're spending your time today, right? Because that tells you what you're prioritizing and what's important to you. And very often it's not in alignment with the things that really do matter most, the things that move the needle. So so that's one of the things is, is to do a time audit and really understand where people are spending their time. And it's also to step back and, and look at the goals and objectives and what are, you know, the most important areas that are moving the needle. So what, what we forget sometimes is we get so lost in the tasks and the doing that we aren't as focused on the impact in what moves the needle. So that's the other thing that I start with them, is to understand, okay, let's clarify your goals and let's make sure those are the real goals.

 

Penny Zenker (05:54):

And that, you know, is everyone aligned with those goals? Because sometimes even within an executive team or, or maybe a group of partners, right? Is everybody truly in line with those goals? Because if not, everybody's kind of working towards different things. So, you know, how do you know that you have alignment? And then and then understanding what are the levers that drive results towards those goals. Because then, then you can identify a gap. Here's where you are spending your time, here's where you need to be spending your time. And, and then going, going after it, right? And, and making sure that it filters down through the team so that sort of, everybody has a line of sight to be able to say, I know why my work matters and how I deliver towards that, that higher goal and objective that we're working towards. And that gives somebody more, more meaning, more capability, right? When they know the big why and, and the numbers that they're working towards, then they can also be given the ability to make decisions as to, okay, this yes, and here's where we're gonna minimize and compromise, because there are gonna have to be areas where we minimize and compromise if we want to get to the things that are most important.

 

Dina Cataldo (07:21):

Yeah, I think you make a really important point there. So if the leader is not aware of their goals and has clarity around what is most important, the team is going to flounder, and they are not going to be as productive as you want them to be. They are going to even feel disconnected from the overarching goal of the company. They're gonna feel disconnected from maybe the leader, and they're not gonna feel fulfilled in their job because they're probably gonna feel a bit lost. They're, they're gonna be doing whatever they think is in front of them that needs to get done, versus maybe the most important thing, only because the leader hasn't articulated for themselves and clarified for themselves, and then communicated what their priorities are to their people. So what do you find is, well,

 

Penny Zenker (08:19):

Can I interrupt there for a second? Yeah, please. But what, what I find sometimes is that they think they have communicated,

 

Dina Cataldo (08:24):

Yeah, that's true. <Laugh>,

 

Penny Zenker (08:26):

I have told people what they should focus on. We have communicated the numbers, but I can't tell you, especially the more change challenge and uncertainty that we have in our workplace and in the environment, the more we have to communicate, the more we have to check in to make sure that people are, 'cause things also change dynamically. The priorities can, can shift maybe not the overarching goals, but the day-to-day priorities. And and very often there's a mismatch in what the leader thinks is necessary in terms of communication and what the team feels is necessary. A a great example of that is in the area of feedback. 53% of leaders feel like they're giving enough feedback. And I think it, I don't remember the statistic exactly, it was in the 60%, 64% or so of people feel that they're not getting enough feedback. And and, and this number I do remember, and 39% of people are are actually feel like they are not important in the organization because they're not getting that feedback.

 

Penny Zenker (09:38):

So that's a great example where there's a complete mismatch of, of what leaders think and, and what's actually being represented. And that's just one, one more point on that is that when, when there's a mismatch like that, it's, it's a leader's responsibility, not just to communicate, but to ensure that it's received and, and that everybody has what they need in order to feel good at the company, to feel like their work has meaning, to feel like they're contributing and that they are actually productive. That's a leadership's responsibility. And they, so they need to be responsible for not only what they say, but that it's received.

 

Dina Cataldo (10:25):

Yeah. And I do wanna make sure, you know, for everybody listening, we're not just talking about a partner or somebody who owns a firm, but if you have an assistant that you work with regularly, this is you, you are in a leadership position, and I'm glad you brought this up, penny, because something that I see a lot of is, you know, they'll, lawyers will tell me, you know, but I've told them a thousand times how to do this thing, and they're still not doing it the way I want them to do it. But the way that it has been communicated is often disrespectfully, often in a rush because the lawyer is, you know, overwhelmed themselves. They're not taking moments to communicate and then hear that feedback back from the assistant and then ask them questions like, Hey, how's your bandwidth right now? Like, how are you doing right now? And, you know, I'm really curious about, you know, what your thought process was when you did this project, because it didn't turn out the way that I expected it to. So I'm trying to figure out what your thought process was. So, in order for us to be effective leaders, we have to ask questions and really have a conversation, not just tell somebody, Hey, do it this way. You're not doing it right. Try again.

 

Penny Zenker (11:39):

Right? Feedback doesn't only go from the senior to the junior, right? It's give me feedback, what's working, what's not working. But it, you know, and, and I wanna say that it's also, this is true for our, our family, right? Our relationships at home and everywhere is that it's not just about what we say, it's how it's received. Because it mm-hmm, <affirmative> a good way to, to take it outside of the work relationship that people can relate to is, is, is take your children, for instance, right? You can say certain things until you're blue in the face and they're not listening. They're like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, <laugh>, you know, because they weren't, we have to create rapport and make that connection first, that emotional connection, so that people are, are with us, right? We, we know that in a sales conversation, they talk about rapport all the time.

 

Penny Zenker (12:28):

It's the first thing that we need to do just because someone works for you or you have a relationship with them, what I found is doesn't mean that you instantly have rapport, right? Everybody's in a different emotional place or understands the, the what they're ex what's expected of them. But if I feel like someone's yelling at me, or, or talking down to me, I'm not listening because I'm focused on how I feel about the energy that this person is bringing to me. So, you know, we've gotta hit that connection first, make sure that we've got rapport in the moment, and then be able to, to, to bring that forward.

 

Dina Cataldo (13:09):

Yeah, absolutely. I, I was having a conversation with one of the lawyers in my Timepiece for lawyers program recently, and he started implementing weekly meetings with his assistant. And he hadn't done that in the past because he thought he needed to have this open door policy where, you know, he was constantly available so that their employees could get more done. We can get your 2 cents on that in just a second. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. I have a feeling everybody listening knows my opinion on that. But when I heard that he, he started doing that, I asked him some questions about it, and he said, yeah, I'm actually getting to know my assistant better. I feel like I have this opportunity to talk a little bit more with her and get to know her on a personal level. And it creates that bond, it creates that relationship. When you're designating time for somebody and you're able to communicate what you need, it also puts you on the same page. So you start getting on the same wavelength and things start to smooth out because you're having regular communications with them. And not just kind of these short, snappy conversations. Hey, how do I do this? Hey, do you need this? What is this? Da da, da, da. What is, what are your thoughts on that?

 

Penny Zenker (14:22):

Well, a couple different things. So first off, like what you were saying about the energy exchange and whatnot, I think we could think of it like a bank account, right? If you're constantly withdrawing from the bank account, there's gonna be a point where it's empty, right? And you, you have no more goodwill or money, or whatever you wanna call it, trust. If you're not consistently, and every time you respect someone, you show them trust, you're putting back into the bank, you're making that connection, right? So, so that you can take out when you need to take out. So, sure, you can be short sometimes if, if you're tight with time, but that's because you put into the bank over time. And I, I think that's a maybe an easy way for people to think about it, is there it is an exhaustible resource, somebody's goodwill, and if you're not respecting them, that's very quickly going to empty the account.

 

Dina Cataldo (15:18):

Mm, yeah, absolutely. And then also as to this, open the open door policy. Yeah, I wanna talk about that too. A lot of lawyers think they can't close their door. And so I do a lot of coaching on, Hey, it's okay, you can close your door, and then we talk through all their fears. But what's your experience with this in terms of what the leaders that you see, do they have the same sense that, oh, I need to be available all the time?

 

Penny Zenker (15:45):

I'm not seeing that necessarily. Mm. But they're almost never available a lot of the people. So I think there's extremes. Mm. Which is interesting, right? They're either just never available and constantly pushing it off and, and things like that. And then those who feel like, you know, their door is open, you can contact them anytime but that's a distraction. They're not getting any of their quality work done. So it's better for ev and plus, they're not giving their people the authority and the, what do you wanna call it to allow them to solve their own problems, right? Yeah. If, if they're gonna go in to, to every, for every fix and every little thing, then they're not gonna develop the critical thinking skills that they need in order to solve their own problems and find answers to, to what it is they're working on. So otherwise they can collect them and share them at the open, open office hours or, you know, however they want to do that. But I find an open door policy is not good for anyone.

 

Dina Cataldo (16:51):

Yeah. Yeah. And, and one of the things that was coming to mind, oh, I might have just lost it, but I, I was, let's see if I can get, get back in the rhythm here. But when I was thinking about this, I was also thinking about it in terms of the energy that you expend not teaching your people how to think like you, like, if you are not teaching your people to think like you either with SOPs standard operating procedures, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or having some ex like having some system in place so that they could say, okay, this is how I think about this problem. When I see this problem, I look at problem one is the priority, then problem two is the priority, and then problem three is the priority. And so when you approach this particular problem, break it down this way in how you're thinking about it.

 

Dina Cataldo (17:51):

And so often lawyers kind of do it piecemeal and just say, do this, this part, and they don't necessarily explain the whole thing. Right? So I guess an analogy would be to, let's say you have an associate who is writing a brief and arguing a brief, and you're, you're not necessarily saying like, I want you to think about this brief in these particular ways, these particular arguments, and this one's the most important argument. And then this one's gonna be the secondary argument in the tertiary argument, right? So it's, it's not teaching them how to think through that problem is kind of letting them just kind of figure it out on their own. And we don't want that.

 

Penny Zenker (18:32):

Yeah. No. That it's that's what many leaders do though, is they'll just hand out the tasks Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> without giving the bigger picture, without understanding the whole context. And what it does is it stops people from being able to think through the problem. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> they just do what, what's given to them. And so I think, like you said, whether it's, whether it's an SOP that lays out exactly the, the process or whether it's an overview of the objective of the project and the, the case, and, you know, giving that overview, because when people know the big picture, they may have a different way to approach it as well. Maybe there's, sometimes it's great to follow an SOP and sometimes we have to know when to go away from the SOP because it's not working for this particular situation or to reach that particular goal, right?

 

Penny Zenker (19:27):

So sometimes it's too granular and it's, or it's skipping a step, or, you know, we want people to also, to be creative thinkers and to be able to think on their own and not only follow something that's there, but to have that as an important guide. So I think there's, there's both sides, right? There's having that description, but if everyone thought the same, then you're not gonna get any, maybe there's a new way to argue this or, you know what I mean? Something I, i, I don't know the, the ins and outs of legal projects, but if I'm gonna hire somebody for my team, I wanna show them, here's the checklist, here's the SOP, here's the overarching client and what they're trying to achieve. And I want them to bring their creativity. I want them to say, you know what? This step doesn't make any sense. I know that we may have done this for, for three years because that's what the person before me always did, but here's why it doesn't make sense. They can actually think through the whole problem because they know the big picture.

 

Dina Cataldo (20:30):

Yeah. And I think this also speaks to the importance of having those weekly meetings, even if they're just 20 minutes. Because you're going to have the opportunity to say, Hey, what's coming up for you this past week? Was there any confusion in this past week? I, you know, just this morning I had a meeting with my assistant and I said, Hey, this is what I'm seeing with this particular system you're introducing into the mix. These are some problems that I see. What problems do you see? What was your thought process in creating this system so that I can understand maybe there's a benefit to this system that I didn't see? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, because I am not all knowing <laugh>. I need to be able to, I want to be able to have that collaborative relationship with my assistant, and then we can say, alright, well this is the system as it is. Do we wanna just play with it and go with what it is? And then we'll just tweak it as we go along. But we can't have those kinds of conversations if we're not putting time aside and honoring that time Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> with our assistant or associate so that we can actually move the business forward. Yeah.

 

Penny Zenker (21:39):

You wanna empower your people, right? Yes. And, and meeting them, hearing them out, listening to ideas challenges, and avoid any mismatch of expectations. That's where, that's where frustration comes in. Frustration not addressed through these mismatch of expectations becomes actually sometimes in this employee leadership type of role, it becomes bitterness, right? And so I have this sort of four stages of engagement that I talk about. And people will show up in the beginning when they first get there, and they'll conform and they'll do your SOP because they're just learning, right? So they're gonna show up and, you know, and that's an eager showing up. It's not a negative. It's, they're gonna show up and then they're gonna speak up. Now they feel more comfortable, they're gonna speak up, they're gonna share their ideas, they're gonna share things when you shut them down or don't give that opportunity, right? Then they're gonna shut up. Mm-Hmm.

 

Dina Cataldo (22:35):

<Affirmative>.

 

Penny Zenker (22:35):

And now you're getting apathy. You're getting, you know, people who are at work but not fully engaged type of thing. And then you're gonna get the shut down, which is, oh yeah, I'm done here. And then it's shortly thereafter that, that they're leaving, right? So when you aren't hearing people sharing their ideas and, and speaking up in some level, you should be concerned

 

Dina Cataldo (22:59):

<Laugh>. Yeah. And I mean, you wanna have employees who are engaged, right? You want people who are interested in the work that you Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> are doing, interested in helping you achieve your goals. Because ideally, when you're hiring them, you're also ensuring that these are people who want to be engaged, want to have these conversations, want to speak up and say, yes, I see room for improvement here. And you're collaborating with them to create something That's right. And

 

Penny Zenker (23:29):

That's what the new generations want as well. Yeah. They want to be able to be a bigger part of what's going on. And so if you are denying that, then, then those people are gonna be looking elsewhere.

 

Dina Cataldo (23:41):

Oh, for sure. I mean, I love the fact that I think, think you and I, since we, we do similar work in a lot of ways that we have this kind of built in mission that people that we work with are interested in contributing to, interested in collaborating with. I know that I've had conversations with my assistant, and I know that he's like, yeah, you're, you're changing people's worlds. Like you're able to help people and to be involved in that kind of change is something that's exciting for a lot of people. You don't wanna just like go into work, clock in, clock out. You actually wanna be a part of something, right?

 

Penny Zenker (24:18):

Yeah.

 

Dina Cataldo (24:19):

I'm curious, when you're talking about, you were talking about emotional intelligence, right? That came up. I wanna talk a little bit more about emotional intelligence, because I think based on my conversations with lawyers, that as lawyers, we are very focused, you're the focus ologist, right? So, you know, it's like, okay, you're focused on one particular goal that day. I've gotta get this deadline out. I've gotta get this thing done. And you're not necessarily in that moment thinking about how you're coming across to other people. You're just so one minded that everything else kind of goes off to the side, right? So I'm curious what your experience with leaders is in that capacity and how you have talked to them about emotional intelligence.

 

Penny Zenker (25:11):

Absolutely. Well, just to make it clear, you know, the focus ologist is all dependent on, you know, I define focus a little bit different. It's not just attention on that, of course, thing, it's actually, it's about being intentional, right? Controlling and directing the energy of your thoughts, your feelings, and your actions to produce positive, meaningful results. So to me, a focus ologist, one of the core principles is emotional intelligence. So that a, you are emotionally intelligent by able to step back for yourself. So my reset practice has three steps, and it helps us to, for ourselves to step back away from the emotion, from the biases, from the way we've always done things. That's step one, so that we can kind of detach a little bit. And that's an important part of emotional intelligence to a recognize, Hey, I've been triggered here, right? So awareness in this step back phase is absolutely key to practice and practice.

 

Penny Zenker (26:14):

Be a, a professional noticer, is what I say. Mm. Become a professional noticer. And then that way you get to, to, to kind of recognize this, oh my goodness, I was just triggered. And, and you're not like, you're just kind of observing yourself sometimes. Like, okay, I've gotta step back here because I'm noticing it. And the faster you notice it, the faster you can shift it. Yeah. And then you need to do that for others as well. Notice when they're triggered, when they're, you know, uncomfortable and, and be noticing that as well, so that, you know, you can step into the step second step, which is to get perspective. Meaning what am I missing here? You know, what are, what are some other ways that I can communicate this since it's clearly not getting across in the way that I meant it? How else can we look at this challenge?

 

Penny Zenker (27:05):

Right? So perspective can be a number of different things depending on the context. Mm-Hmm. And then lastly is to realign and, and refocus, right? Reprioritize. and, and so it, it's so key for, you know, you're talking about how do I deal with those people who are just like, head down and not looking at anything? Notice you need to slow down. You need to take what I call these reset moments to check in, check in with yourself. Is this still the most important thing? Check in that, you know, you recognize that somebody's struggling. That means you, your team is just as important as this, this thing that's happening. How could you take a simple moment to show them that you care? Yeah. It doesn't always mean that you have to, emotional intelligence isn't that I'm gonna need to sit with somebody for a few hours and, and hold their hand or let them cry on my shoulder, or, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>.

 

Penny Zenker (28:03):

But, you know, let them know that you care. Maybe it's, it's simply stop by their desk and say, listen, if you need to take the afternoon off, that's okay. Or you know, depending on the, the, what the person's going through or the situation, or just to say, Hey, I heard you're having a hard time. How can I support you? You know, is there something we could reallocate, like having a conversation showing that you care? Right. It clearly, it depends on the context of the situation, but it can, showing you care can happen in a moment. Send, you know, give a handwritten card that, that shows that you care. It, it meant so much to me when I was at home. I was actually working at, at a company when my father had passed away, and it meant so much to me. All the people that reached out. It didn't take a long time, but they reached out to let me know that they cared. And that meant a lot to me.

 

Dina Cataldo (29:00):

Yeah. I was, it is so funny, as you were talking about that, I was thinking about when my father passed away, and I was like, oh, okay. I, I went back to work. And you know how some people ask you how you're doing, but they don't really wanna hear how you're doing. They're just kind of saying it to say it. Yeah. And so I could tell the difference. Yeah. And, and when I had somebody ask me like, how are you doing? Like, it was a, it was a very present moment with this person where I knew they actually wanted to know how I was, and I felt comfortable sharing how I really felt with them. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And it's so important, like your reset practice that you described is being in the present moment with people, it's being in the present moment with yourself, with

 

Penny Zenker (29:43):

Yourself too. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Dina Cataldo (29:44):

And really starting to pay attention to how you feel and have those real conversations with people that aren't simply superficial, just passing the time to be polite kind of things. How's the weather? Versus like, how are you doing? Like, I, I know you're going through something right now, and I just, I wanna be here for this moment. It doesn't mean that anything more than we're just having this moment right here.

 

Penny Zenker (30:11):

Yeah. Well, and sometimes you know that, how are you doing? Let's, let's get rid of that, because it doesn't mean anything. Right? It's, it's a, it's like a greeting, Hey, how you doing? Like, you don't really care.

 

Dina Cataldo (30:25):

Oh, yeah. Like that kind of thing is not, but, but even if,

 

Penny Zenker (30:28):

Even if you come to say to somebody, how are you doing? Maybe there's a better way to show that you care. Like, this must be hard for you to, to be back, you know, something that creates a little bit more of a, of a connection first. Right. So

 

Dina Cataldo (30:44):

Maybe, I mean, in, in this particular case, it worked for me. Right. So it really, maybe it depends on your delivery too, right?

 

Penny Zenker (30:51):

Because you knew that they really meant it. Yeah. I guess what I was trying to say is to help people to know that you mean it or to get into your own heart when you ask it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is maybe there's that connector to how are you doing? Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. So it helps to bring you into the present in, in that context.

 

Dina Cataldo (31:14):

Yeah. And, and it really does depend on your relationship with that person. Yeah. And if you're a leader, bringing it back into the leadership context that we were talking about, it's so important that you know, your people in the context of your work, but also that you have some kind of understanding of is do they need a little extra support? Right. And it may not even be anything like we're talking about here, like emotional support. It might be that they're learning a new skill and they don't have the, the knowledge base yet to perform at the level you'd like them to. And so to keep track of them and watch them and be curious and ask them, Hey, do you need some support here?

 

Penny Zenker (32:00):

Yeah. And I find also, you know, people, many leaders, they'll say, well, I asked them if they needed help or they needed any support. A lot of times people won't admit that they need support or they need help. So we also need to find other ways to recognize and ask in, in different ways so that it, it gives people permission to, to say, yes, I do need some support or some help. Right. That it is a challenge again a mismatch where they're like, yeah, I, I asked them whether they needed help and they said no. So it is, you know,

 

Dina Cataldo (32:36):

That's, yeah. Are

 

Penny Zenker (32:37):

Some of the more delicate areas, do you know what I mean?

 

Dina Cataldo (32:40):

Yeah. Do you have some suggestions for that?

 

Penny Zenker (32:43):

I think it's mixing up the questions, you know, asking. So for instance, the words that we use in the language can hold with it different meanings. So do you need help? Some people don't like the word help, it makes them feel helpless, right? If they say, yes, I need help, but support might be a better word to use. How can I support you? What do you need in order to be more successful or to integrate faster? Also another thing I would say is how, how do you feel like it's going? Why don't we rate yourself, rate, rate how you feel on a scale from one to 10? So a lot of times that gives you a scale too, as to, it's something I use all the time, especially, you know, as a coach, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you, you wanna ask people did, like at the end of a coaching session, for instance, and this could be a, a leader subordinate type of, or a team member meeting where you could say also you know, how, how was this meeting for you on a scale from one to 10? Did did you feel like it met your expectations and your goals?

 

Dina Cataldo (34:01):

Hmm. Okay. Right.

 

Penny Zenker (34:02):

So rate, rate this meeting together, on a scale from one to 10, 10 being the best and one being the least, or how confident do you feel moving forward with this software in this process on a scale from one to 10, 10 being the best, one being the least. Now you get something, you, you get a baseline, you get a better understanding than if somebody says, how do you feel? And you go, okay. You know, but maybe that okay, is a six. Okay, great. Well, what else could we do to give you a higher level of confidence? So it opens up, you know, an ability to see where they really are and then ask another question.

 

Dina Cataldo (34:41):

Hmm. See, I like that because it's also bringing them into the collaborative process of even creating these meetings. And something that I like to do is, I have a Google doc that I have every week that I share with my assistant, and we collaborate on what's gonna be, you know, the topics of conversation in that meeting. So I'll have the ideas that I want, he'll put in his ideas of what he needs to ask me. And so then we have collaborated and created it together and Yeah.

 

Penny Zenker (35:11):

And you ate an agenda together.

 

Dina Cataldo (35:13):

Yeah. One of the things that I have seen with lawyers who are starting to introduce some of these concepts that we've been talking about here, meetings, collaborative meetings these kinds of SOPs, bringing these kinds of things in, is that they may not get the warm welcome from their staff that their brain expects them to have. And I'm curious what experience, if any you have around that and how to address that?

 

Penny Zenker (35:48):

Can you ask that again? I'm not sure that I fully understood that. Yeah.

 

Dina Cataldo (35:51):

So, so one of the things that I've noticed is that lawyers often think, okay, I'm gonna do this. I've got this, I'm gonna start new meetings. We're gonna do a collaborative process. They're excited about doing these meetings, but their staff isn't necessarily excited about the meetings. They don't necessarily even know what the meetings are for because they've gone for, who knows, five years without these meetings. Okay. And now all of a sudden they, they, their boss is saying, Hey, let's have a meeting. And they're not necessarily as excited as maybe the lawyer is about it. So I'm curious if you've had these kinds of experiences where the leader is implementing something new and the the staff is just kind of confused. They, they're, they're showing, they may show up, but they may not be as excited as the leader thinks they should be in quotes.

 

Penny Zenker (36:40):

Right? Well, I mean, first hopefully they're communicating what's the purpose of the meetings. Yeah. Right. So that's the first thing is, is the reason why we're going to be initiating these new meetings is because I realize that I've let you down over the last, you know, it's also okay to say, I've realized I haven't been giving you the opportunity to do X, Y, and Z. So we're going to talk about status every day or once a week, and that's gonna, you know, whatever the purpose is of the meeting. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So that, that's really clear. They should understand what's their role, what's the, the leader's role of the meeting. Also, you know, any, any other expectations, you know, that maybe the leader says, I'd also like to hear your feedback. You know, I'd like you to contribute, like you said, with your people, like you to help build the agenda every week so that, so, so that they know the, the way that it's gonna work.

 

Penny Zenker (37:40):

And if that person had been leaving and not showing up to meetings and things like that, then basically it's okay that the others are skeptical. Yeah. And you get to show up and prove that to them, that you're gonna show up every week and that you're gonna do what you said. So the worst thing is to say you're gonna do something new and then not follow through consistently. So I guess, you know, the, the big thing would be what do they need to do to set themselves up to be consistent in the way that they run these meetings? So maybe they need to put an extra 30 minutes in their calendar somewhere to prepare for those meetings, to make sure that they're ready and prepared that Yes. Will build more trust. Right. As opposed to coming and then being like, oh, what we're gonna do anyway and, you know, why are we here? Do you have anything from me? Right. Then, then it's not useful.

 

Dina Cataldo (38:34):

Yes, absolutely. Put in that extra time. I like to say, when you are doing something like this, that you need to market the meeting, right. If this is a new thing that you are introducing into your practice, it's up to you to market it. They don't have to be excited about it. It doesn't really matter. But you do want to have your, your foundation for it. It's like, okay, we're gonna have a meeting this week. The reason we're gonna be implementing these meetings is because I'm noticing that there's some time deficiencies happening, not even on your end, but on my end. And I wanna make sure that we, we start being a little bit more efficient with our time and this is our ability to do this. Or I had another client who was noticing that one of her assistants wasn't necessarily doing those things, doing some things in her litigation practice that she wanted done a certain way.

 

Dina Cataldo (39:28):

And she couldn't necessarily take, you know, 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there to review each of these documents with them. And so she was taking this work on herself. So instead what she did is she turned her meeting into a review meeting so she could say, alright, we're gonna have an hour every week or every other week, and we're gonna just review the documents that you prepared together. And what she's noticed is that her assistant has vastly improved her abilities to complete these documents because the leader has taken the time to show her exactly how she thinks, and she's gained practice of it over and over again in these meeting sessions. So meetings don't have to look one particular way. Right. You can do them in a way that makes sense for your particular practice and the needs of your practice.

 

Penny Zenker (40:19):

Absolutely. Right. Because that created a greater sense of accountability. 'cause She knew every week they were gonna be reviewed. She felt cared for that she's getting that feedback. We talked earlier about, you know, the statistics that people want the feedback, they want to do a better job, they want you to be happy and they want to feel like the work that they're doing is, is meaningful and productive. So that those are perfect types of things, right. To do. Yeah. Even to sometimes to shadow the leader, or for the leader to shadow the assistant or, or whoever, whoever else is on the team, and be able to give that feedback from the shadowing, right. Or to document a process. You can have meetings to over time that we document these processes. So like you said, a meeting doesn't have to be in any specific kind of way. It's just to address a particular opportunity or challenge or improvement.

 

Dina Cataldo (41:14):

Yeah. So for all the lawyers listening, just know you have so many processes right now that you're keeping in your head, and you are not allowing your people to really get a handle of whether it's your intake processes, whether it's, you know, having conversations with clients, whatever it is, you have that in your head. But you could be having these moments where you have an opportunity to either standardize a weekly meeting, have them sit in with you on your intake session so that they can take notes, so that they can understand your thought process. And then you have maybe 15 minutes after that intake process to then share with them, this was my thought process throughout that intake. Do you have any questions? Tell me what your thoughts were. You know, so that you can actually have a little back and forth with the people that you're working with and they can gain better a better, oh, I forgot the word. What was the word penny? Better. Not accountability, but better. They know, they know more what they're doing. They feel stronger in the sense of their abilities when they have that ability to speak to you about the work.

 

Penny Zenker (42:24):

Yeah, absolutely. And it gives them that space to ask those questions because sometimes we, as experts in whatever we do, we don't know why we do it. Mm-Hmm. And we don't even think about it. We just do it. And so when someone watches us or has to do an SOP, right, they, by, by having that, that ability to ask that person right there, Hey, I saw you do X, you know, why did you do it? Sometimes we need to know y so that it sinks in and we, and, and then we're better able to execute it when we understand, like you said earlier, like the bigger picture and that time to ask questions is so valuable.

 

Dina Cataldo (43:03):

Oh yeah. A hundred percent. Penny, this has been such a great conversation. Do you have anything else you wanna add to this conversation before we wrap up?

 

Penny Zenker (43:14):

No. I, I don't think so. I mean, one of the things I just talk about is, you know, is just making, coming back to, let's say the emotional intelligence, it's just making more reset moments. These moments where we step back, get perspective and realign, whether it's to recharge, whether it's to reprioritize, to realign with our team, these reset moments, the more chaos and the more distraction we have and, and the more that we need to take these moments to, to come together and pull ourselves together. So just make more reset moments. Put them into your process flow, right? These meetings that we're talking about, those are reset moments to get in alignment on how to, how to do these documents or perform this process or whatever. So just take a step back and look at all of your processes, look where things are breaking down and look to where you can put them into these, these moments, whether they're meetings, whether they're check-ins with people spontaneously. You know, just, just really be more intentional about taking them.

 

Dina Cataldo (44:22):

So good. Can you share with everybody listening how they can connect with you?

 

Penny Zenker (44:28):

Of course. They can go to my website, which is pennys keynote.com. P-E-N-N-Y-S keynote.com. They can also go to the reset mindset.net. I have my book came out in September the Reset Mindset. So that's definitely a great option for people. I was on the USA today's national bestseller list and gotten a, like you said earlier, with Stephen Covey and Mel Robbins and a number of other really, really great people who have endorsed it. And I'm sure people will, will find a lot of value in it. That's

 

Dina Cataldo (45:03):

So fabulous. Congratulations on that. Thank you. Yeah, so definitely go check out her book. I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. I'm gonna link to the website she just mentioned in the show notes. And I just wanna thank you, penny, for coming on and sharing your wisdom with everybody here, and I look forward to speaking to you in the future.

 

Penny Zenker (45:23):

Oh, thanks for having me.