I'm so excited to introduce you to Charlena Smith.
We actually have several, and we can use them to leverage how to succeed – however we define that word – and bring awareness to where we need to do our most important work on ourselves.
Today I'm talking to Charlena Smith. She's the founder of Optio, a matched and Guided Accountability™ framework that empowers women to live their best, most inspired lives. Optio encourages and equips women to discover their purpose, design their own blueprint, then define their goals in alignment with that purpose to see up to a 97% increase in successful goal completion.
When you listen to what Charlena has to say, I know you’ll have moments where you’ll think, “Oh, that’s so me,” or “I totally do that.” I know I did. When we do that, it helps us bring awareness to the great things about ourselves but also those areas of our lives that we may stand to do a little work on.
Be sure to take a pic of you listening and tag me on Instagram @dina.cataldo
And if you would please take a moment to leave a review for Soul Roadmap, I would greatly appreciate it. It's our one year anniversary this week, and I'd love for Soul Roadmap to reach new listeners!
If you need to know how to leave a review, I've created a couple videos to help you out!
- Take a free Optio personality quiz
- Learn more about Charlena Smith's guided accountability at MyOptio.org
- Gretchen Ruben's book “The Four Tendencies: The Indispensable Personality Profiles That Reveal How to Make Your Life Better (and Other People's Lives Better, Too)”
- The book StrengthFinders 2.0 by Tom Rath. I highly recommend this book if you're interested in leading a company, management of small teams or are just interested in learning more about yourself and how you interact with others in your world. This book is a must for entrepreneurs.
- If you're interested in Enneograms, here's a link to learn more
- “The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types“
- If you're interested in learning more about the Big Five personality traits, click here
Dina Cataldo: 00:36 Hello. Hello. I hope your week is going well. If not, let's change it up a bit, shall we? We are celebrating a year of soul roadmap podcasts. This podcast has been so much fun for me to create and it's been wonderful getting to know the amazing people who've shown up as guests and the listeners who've reached out to me over the last year. Thank you all for supporting this podcast. If you'd like to celebrate with me, I would be so excited. If you would post a pic of you listening and tag me in your Instagram account and maybe tag a particular favorite episode that you have. You can tag me at Dina Dot. Cataldo and if you haven't subscribed rated and reviewed soul roadmap yet, what are you waiting for? My friend iTunes only shows those new podcasts to new listeners who are consistently subscribing to them, rating them and reviewing them.
Dina Cataldo: 01:30 So if you would please take just a little bit of your time to do that, I would greatly appreciate it. It actually created a couple of videos to show you how to leave reviews on iTunes, both on desktop or on your iPhone in the show [email protected] forward slash 55 since I had a couple of questions on that, and this is how we can continue to grow solid road map, word of mouth on Instagram and social media generally and through iTunes. So thank you very much. All right, today we have a guest who is going to walk us through the nine personality types. Now this isn't to put anyone in a box. We're actually exploring these nine personality types to bring awareness to how we show up in the world and how we can shift our personalities to reach our goals. It's all about awareness and making change, and it's about accomplishing these goals, my friend.
Dina Cataldo: 02:22 So before I tell you more about Charlena, I want you to know that there are still spots available in June for free, 45 minute discovery call sessions with me. If you've been thinking about what one on one coaching can do for you, but you'd like to know more, go to the show [email protected] forward slash 55 Gary, you're going to find a work with me link that will take you to an outline of exactly what you get when you coach with me and you'll learn how you can schedule a free 45 minute discovery call to answer all of your questions. All right, let's talk about our guests now.
Dina Cataldo: 02:58 Charlena Smith is the founder of optio unmatched and Guided Accountability Framework that empowers women to live their best, most inspired lives. Don't worry, gentlemen, we are talking to you today in the podcast.
Dina Cataldo: 03:11 Charlena just happens to talk to women mostly. Optio encourages and equips women to discover their purpose, design their own blueprint, then define their goals in alignment with that purpose to see up to a 97% increase in successful goal completion. She is a self proclaimed workaholic in recovery after a near death experience during pregnancy, she discovered that she had to make some changes. She made a decision to find purposeful and fulfilling work for herself, not based on external expectations but on what she felt was the right thing to do. Preach. Right. When you listen to what she has to say, I know you're going to have moments where you're going to think, “Oh, that's so me,” or “I totally do that.” I know I did and when we do that, it helps us bring awareness to the great things about ourselves, but also those areas of our lives that we may stand to do a little work on. I can't wait to get started, so let's just jump right in.
Dina Cataldo: 04:07 Hi Charlena. How are you doing today?
Charlena Smith: 04:09 Good, thank you. How are you doing?
Dina Cataldo: 04:12 Fantastic. Thank you. I really appreciate you joining me and you know we get to have a nice chat today. Just start out by introducing yourself to our listeners.
Charlena Smith: 04:22 Sure. My name is Charlena Smith. I'm the founder of Optio. It's a matched and guided personality assessment system. And I have two boys. They are six and eight. They're a handful and a half. And a loving husband. Oh. And I'm in Baltimore, Maryland.
Dina Cataldo: 04:36 You know, I love, the idea of the personality and how we really create this identity for ourselves and just kind of we become informed when we're really little and our mind makes all of these misinterpretations and all of these different expectations are set on how we're supposed to be. And I know that we were going to talk today about personality types, but can you give me kind of your point of view in terms of how we form our identity?
Charlena Smith: 05:08 Sure. So one thing that makes us a little bit different, we probably heard your entire life that your personality is hardwired. You know, people give you these tests and 20 years later you're supposed to be the exact same thing. And we disagree with that. Um, we think that your personality is malleable, that it's more like who you're wearing. So, you know, you see at the Oscars or the Grammys, all of the glamour on the red carpet and all of the photographers a shouting, who are you wearing? Who are you wearing? And it's some fancy designer. That's how we look at personality. It's who you're wearing in that season. And one of the big things that we like to uncover is whether or not it's serving you. So is who you're wearing. Is that accenting your curves in the right way or is it really not doing you justice? So that's kind of how we take it.
Charlena Smith: 05:52 And we do see your personality is definitely formed as you are growing up.
Charlena Smith: 05:58 When you're young, certain situations, certain crisises how your parents did, you know, the nature versus nurture, that whole thing absolutely plays into it. But that doesn't mean that you can't change. That doesn't mean that you can't choose that there's something about yourself that isn't serving you. Get rid of it or choose that there's something that you want to be able to do. I want to be a disciplined person and make that happen. So that's how we look at it.
Dina Cataldo: 06:24 Ah, I love that because as you know, lawyers and really it doesn't matter if you're a lawyer or some other professionals, you know anybody, we take on these traits and we start identifying them as us. Like I'm a stressed person. I'm just a stressed person. Like there's nothing I can do about it. That's just how I am. Or you know, we take circumstances like our financial circumstances and say something like, Oh, well I just can never afford that, or I'm just briefing by, you know, like there's always these externalization of who we believe ourselves to be. Rather than really looking into ourselves and recognizing, okay, that doesn't feel good, that's not getting me the result that I want. That's not giving me out of life what I know I really deserve. Why is it working that way and what can I do to change that? That's really what I'm excited to talk to you about today.
Charlena Smith: 07:16 [inaudible] just one of my favorite things, especially women specifically. A lot of times we'll say, I'm just not good with numbers and it drives me crazy. I'm like, no, you are good. Everything you need is inside of you. You just have to learn to access it and maybe in a different way than you've been told in the past. And you are good with numbers, you're good with everything. Everything you need is in that big beautiful brain of yours. You just need to learn the right path to access it.
Charlena Smith: 07:41 So before we really dive into the nine personality traits we were going to talk about, I want to ask you exactly what Optio is and how you became inspired to do the work that you're doing.
Charlena Smith: 07:53 Sure. So Optio is a matched and guided accountability system and what we do is we take all these personalities that we're about to talk about, we do a personality assessment seasonally and just see who you are showing up as in that season. And then we match you with your best accountability partners. So if you think kind of like match.com for relationships but more for goal setting and blueprint defining. So what we mean by that is we're handed a blueprint in life a lot of times, usually from our parents. And that's what we think we're supposed to live out and that's rare to lose our blueprints. That's not always what we're supposed to do and a lot of times we get into later life and we realize we're living somebody else's design so we want to get to the base of that. We have training to get you to the base of what that design is and we match you with somebody whose personality is naturally going to bring that out in you and we go through a whole guided accountability training. It's basically how to hold space for one another, how to be comfortable in your vulnerability. It's getting a lot of personal growth and allowing you to be comfortable in these deeper kinds conversations because we will have them a lot today for so connected on surface level that people forget how to have these deep vulnerable conversations that are so necessary.
Dina Cataldo: 09:04 It's funny because everything that you're saying is resonating with me and I came back just a few days ago from Bali where there was a retreat of women and we talked about these feelings and we became really vulnerable. I mean these are things that we would never share with anybody else except in this group of people who were all doing this really deep work on themselves and really want to uncover, you know, what are they really thinking about themselves and other people and why are they behaving the way that they're behaving and why are we getting the results that we're getting in our lives? I mean like all of these things that are interconnected and you know, we don't make a habit of showing our vulnerable side. And I think that's especially true for lawyers. I think that, you know, in the workplace when we're trying to get the job done, we also don't want to show that we are vulnerable in any way. We don't want to show we have feelings and we, you know, might not be having a great day that, you know, anything is going on. That's a miss. We're always trying to impress somebody. We're always trying to like make people think we're in a place that we're not.
Charlena Smith: 10:17 So many of us are women that went through our program was an attorney in La and represented like really, really hard cases, a lot of gang work and things like that. And it was so transformational for her because she felt like she had to keep this really hard face on all the time and had to be just so pulled together like heaven forbid she made a misstep and heaven forbid every single thing not be in place. And when she got into this program, it was like this release valve was press and she could breathe again. I mean, and you don't need to opt you out to do that. It's just, I do think it's extremely important no matter who you are, to have that kind of outlet and that kind of connection and that kind of support in a community where you can truly be vulnerable because that's where our strength is. You're never going to find the person that you are meant to be without walking through that vulnerability. That's an essential part of the equation.
Dina Cataldo: 11:07 Oh, for sure. I mean, as soon as I started recognizing that I had feelings. I don't think I recognized for a really long time that I actually had feelings and that they mattered. Like I had feelings and that I could actually look at them and say, “Oh I am feeling this and what is that saying about where I am right now?” Like you know, being hammered on with cancer for me to even recognize that I had feelings. Kind of funny.
Charlena Smith: 11:35 When we started this, my biggest fear was that women were not going to be able to be vulnerable in a space like this this quickly. I was like, it's never going to work because the story I was telling myself is that nobody would be vulnerable because it was so hard for me. We used to joke in my family that I didn't have tear ducts. Like at some point your ducks were damaged because like everybody's and like hallmark commercials and stuff like that and I'm like, you guys are crazy. But it was just because I was so like go, go, go. Like everything has to be perfect and just achieve, achieve, achieve that I didn't let myself sit in those feelings and it was really holding me back.
Dina Cataldo: 12:06 Yeah. Um, so the personality traits that we're going to talk about, are they going to reveal to us a little bit about how we are feeling to kind of give people a vocabulary to start dealing with what they're seeing in their everyday life and how they can start to make small changes to make really big changes?
Charlena Smith: 12:24 It should. Yeah. This is going to be a quick kind of overview and then we can go deeper. And I have a lot of recommendations for your listeners to be able to, if they're interested in it, that they can go read some of this stuff. I've been studying it for years. I'm kind of obsessed. I could talk about it for days. It's like a kind of just glance over the water of what you know, personality types there are and certain triggers and why we do certain things. And sometimes I guarantee at least one listener will hear it and go, oh my gosh, I've been doing that for how many years? Do you know? And then realize that they can change this pattern. And sometimes it takes being able to really look at yourself to be able to identify that. And that's really hard sometimes. So it depends on how willing you are to go deep.
Dina Cataldo: 13:02 And I will love that when you start seeing these things, it's like you can't unsee them. So when you know we're talking about being triggered, really that is an emotional response. Something that you feel, and you're like, “Ooh, hey, where's that coming from?” And then you can start that thought process. But it all starts really with what you're feeling. And maybe what we're going to start talking about today is going to generate some of those feelings and you'll be able to resonate with some and say, “Oh hey, that's been going on in my life and I'm going to be able to make change with some of the things we're gonna learn today.” You Ready?
Charlena Smith: 13:37 I am so excited.
Dina Cataldo: 13:38 Okay, let's just get started. Tell us like it is. What are these nine personality traits you want to share with us?
Charlena Smith: 13:44 So, and up to you, we use a bunch of different kind of psychological evaluators to match you because it's more than just your personality, right? A personality is just a tiny part of who you are. But one of the big bases that we use for personality is called the Enneagram. And the Enneagram is pre-Biblical. Like we're talking, I mean it's still amazing what civilization has known for so long and we just continued to ignore it. Um, so we, the Enneogram kind of concept about personality that breaks you out into nine types and you have like a healthy version of yourself and an unhealthy version of yourself. It defines where you tend to fall into traps when you are triggered. And what's great about it is once you identify that you can pull yourself out of him, you can recognize, “Whoa, this is me being an unhealthy version of myself.” “This is not serving me. I should do something different and make an intentional.” It's like a dance. Like you're in this dance pattern of negative behavior. And if you just change one step, the whole dance changes. So we can talk about that a little bit.
Dina Cataldo: 14:41 Let's talk about it.
Charlena Smith: 14:42 Awesome. So the first we have Optio has its own names for things. So I'll, I'll be using those just cause that's what I'm familiar with. But it's a woman of integrity. Optio serves women, so forgive me if I default to that gender term, but it person of integrity is usually very type A, things are black and white things are right and wrong. I joke and say it's a little bit like a Boy Scout. You know like it's so clear. You know they have lists or their lists. They are just so organized. They're the ones that you want to come in. I have somebody come in and organize my house cause I am not a woman of integrity. I need help in this category and I recognize that. So I have someone who has that gift and skill set come in and organize my house and it's amazing.
Charlena Smith: 15:22 Now one of the things that you have to be careful about if this falls into you is that you can fall into perfectionism. So nothing is getting done. It just everything has to be perfect, so you really want to hone in on the progress over perfection mindset. You really want to be making progress, otherwise you'll be dead in the water and never do anything and it can be really demoralizing because you feel like you're not getting anything done. So when you see that happening, that's when you say, oh right, this is already done 99.9% better than the rest of humans would do it. I should just let it go into the world. So that's one of the things we work on in those cases.
Dina Cataldo: 15:57 I want to pause here because perfectionism is something that I know a lot of my listeners struggle with and this is something that I struggled with for a really long time because I did feel as if if it wasn't perfect, then how can I possibly let that out in the world because I was afraid of all the judgment that was going to be put on me if it was not perfect. If there was some misstep I made, then I was concerned about how people would perceive me. But it's really important for us to recognize when we are failing to take action because we fear this external judgement because really don't care. I mean, they're social media people who, you know, everything's going to get them up in a tizzy. And it doesn't even matter what you say. It would still be perfect. They would still have their thing to say. And you know those people, you just look at them and you're just like, okay, well that's how you feel. That's fine. You can go away now. And so, I mean, I just want to kind of hone in on this perfectionism aspect. Do you see that a lot generally, or is it specifically with this personality type?
Charlena Smith: 17:04 Um, we see it in a couple of different categories, but this one is the biggest one. So you'll have perfectionist tendencies in other personality types if you're wearing that personality at that moment. But with a woman of integrity with this particular type, it really holds you back. And that's where it becomes a problem. So if you have perfectionism just to touch, like you just want things to be really amazing, but you're still willing to let go of that fear and put it out there in the universe, that's totally okay. That's when you're learning to channel the tendencies into a positive way instead of holding you back and that's where we really kind of try to dive in and make sure it's serving you. Yes, you want to put an amazing product service offering out into the world. You have these amazing things. As long as it's driving better products and not harming you, then it's great.
Dina Cataldo: 17:53 One of the things that I noticed with perfectionism, I want to spend a little bit more time on this, is that I only began overcoming it when my fear of not doing the work and not putting the work out there was greater than my fear of being judged and you know, me not living to my full potential, I mean not communicating with the people that I wanted to communicate with, that is what really pushed me over the edge and the more I've practiced it, the easier it became. Do you have any other tips or maybe that's resonating.
Charlena Smith: 18:28 150%. The first thing that we do with the blueprint defining that I talked about briefly to truly identify your values and identify what you want your life to look like. And a lot of times you have to have that pain point to take action. So if you really truly map out what you want your life to look like and you realize that this perfectionist tendency is keeping you from having either the relationships or the impact or anything that you want and like the financial success, anything that is your goal that you have written out in your blueprint, and then you realize that by holding onto this because it's not perfect, is keeping you from that goal, that amount of pain it has to outweigh, you know, we really build it up to make, sometimes it's a positive, like I really want to have this amazing, wonderful impact in the world and that's great. Not as great of a motivator as loss or pain. Pain and loss are the greatest motivators. So if you realize that, you know, you can use a family as an example. So if I went through a tough time with my parents where we were, you know, not speaking or the most wonderful, perfect, amazing people in the world to me, I had to get over the perfectionist tendency and get over myself to reach out to rebuild that relationship. And now it's fantastic. And what would my life have been like if I hadn't done that, what I've lost them and never been able to build that relationship back up. So the pain points are definitely the drivers.
Dina Cataldo: 19:47 What was your perfectionist tendency when it came to relationships?
Charlena Smith: 19:51 Oh my goodness. So my pain point is a specific one, but I serial dated for about 15 years. I'd go on one or two dates and then I'd be like, no thanks.
Charlena Smith: 20:03 And it was because I was, I don't know if I, I think I was looking for the perfect person and that doesn't exist and I'm certainly not the perfect person, so I don't even know what I was looking for, but it just, I would always find something wrong always. And that held me back from really healthy relationships for 15 years. That's crazy. So it actually took my mother getting really, really sick and me having to be vulnerable, like it exposed all of these like, you know, parts of myself that I didn't want to go there and admit that I had feelings or admitted I needed anyone cause I was filling that void with something else. And uh, it took all of that deep work for me to realize, you know, the perfect person is right in front of me and just make it work.
Dina Cataldo: 20:46 Isn't that amazing? Like just doing some of this work can get us to a different place in our lives. Like just a sip away at it.
Charlena Smith: 20:54 And then we've been married for 11 years and they're fantastic.
Dina Cataldo: 20:57 That's awesome. All right, so let's move on to the second personality type. Want to share with us?
Charlena Smith: 21:03 Sure. This is a person of empathy. The person that empathy, you can almost identify them immediately when you walk in a room. They are kind of like honey and bees just flocked to them. You know, they're sweet as sugar. They're just so kind and always exuding that warm, motherly kind of nature. They thrive on relationships. They're energized by their personal relationships. They're rarely single. They are really amazing encouragers. They are so supportive. It's like a cheerleading squad of one. You know?
Dina Cataldo: 21:34 Oh man, I know someone exactly like this with one of my best friends, Stephanie.
Charlena Smith: 21:38 It's so good to have one in your life.
Charlena Smith: 21:39 I'm telling you, if they just make everything better. The thing they have to be careful about though is this one is a little bit tricky to even word. When you are supporting someone because you enjoy supporting them and because you love them and you're pouring into them, then that is great. That is positive, but what can happen really quickly with people of empathy is that they start serving others to serve themselves and they're expecting that return. So if you are only serving someone to get something out of the equation, then that's when things get a little bit nasty for this particular personality type. They start to go into regret. They get angry at people, they can withdraw. All sorts of things can happen. So you just have to be careful about the why. You know your why, your internal, why are you doing this? What's motivating you?
Charlena Smith: 22:25 If it's truly because you just love to serve and you're just being blessed by this relationship, then that's great if you are doing it because you need to feel needed then that is when you need to pause
Dina Cataldo: 22:35 And that's a really important to know when we're talking about all of the potential issues that come up with these personality types is to constantly be checking in. I mean no matter what your personality type. Just for me, this is something that I've been doing is asking myself, “What am I thinking?” I have a negative feeling that pops up. Whether it's anxiety, like stress on my shoulders or I notice my breath is shallow, then that's a sign for me that I need to check in with myself.
Charlena Smith: 23:03 Yeah, it's amazing how quickly and especially for people of empathy, you can feel a change in your heart is almost like how they explain it is that all of a sudden it's their motive is different. Like they go from feeling loving, going out to feeling this need to suck in. And it's really, really different. It's powerful. I mean these people are so supportive and so essential in life. And actually statistically speaking, a lot of women tend to take on the personality of empathy. I think just because of our culture and the way that we're raised to kind of be caretakers. But yet it's a very, very tricky slope and it goes quick. So the earlier you can catch it, the better. All right, so what's the third personality type? So the third one is a person of action. I have a feeling a lot of lawyers and attorneys are people of action. So this is where a lot of successful people you'll see as people of action. They define their lives in terms of success, success being the cultural version of success that they saw growing up.
Charlena Smith: 23:58 So you get a lot of the, “Oh, you have to be a doctor or a lawyer,” you know, those kinds of things. So they see that as their version of success. They are almost always beautiful, like just in their own unique ways. They just managed to take care of themselves and just look stunning no matter what. Like it's kind of hard not to look at them. They own a room, they are confident, they are well liked, they are over-achievers by every definition. Probably the homecoming queen, probably the homecoming king, those kinds of things. They're the popular ones, but they're also really kind, they're not popular jerks. They're really sweet. It's not like, you know, the typical high school thing where it's like the mean girls, they're genuinely kind wonderful people and when they're in their healthiest states they thrive on lifting other people up, not just themselves.
Charlena Smith: 24:45 They want to lift up their teams. So it's really a beautiful thing to watch. The danger though is that again a little bit with the perfectionism, but a lot of fear of making a mistake. So they are definitely held back by their fear of making mistakes and also just having that mistake ripple out and people knowing that they made a mistake and then somehow they're not seen as successful anymore. That blew some of their clout. It's really interesting. So as long as you're operating from a base of security and you are competent in yourself and your abilities and in your team, then that's a really healthy place but it can spiral out of control. When you lose those bases and you start trying to achieve just to achieve just to be successful.
Dina Cataldo: 25:28 I know that that at some point I definitely felt that in my life like just working to achieve success definition, external definition feels like that was basically ingrained in us when we were kids.
Charlena Smith: 25:43 Absolutely. I wore this personality for a long time. So in one season of my life I was a grad professor at a top university in our state. I was pursuing my phd. I'd already had four undergrad degrees and three masters, like I can literally like paper my wall with degrees, but it was never enough because success is like more, you know, you just have to keep going more and more and more and I was the COO of a marketing firm, a very fast growing marketing firm and I had two babies under two and a husband. That's the achiever in you. It's like nothing is enough. If I can physically fit something else in my schedule, I will and I almost died doing that. Like I literally worked myself almost to death because I did not see what was happening. I thought everything was great. I mean, if you can do all those things, that rock bottom looks very different than a rock bottom of say like an alcoholic where they're drinking and they hit their rock bottom and it's so clear to everyone. They've hit rock bottom, they're not working, they're not supporting their family. I was the complete opposite. My rock bottom was working two full time jobs, going to two full time schools having two babies. You know, I was doing everything, but it was just as if not more dangerous to me. So it's really interesting. It's so important to know where you are in each of these stages. Whenever you're wearing what you're wearing and what the motives are and why you're doing what you're doing.
Dina Cataldo: 27:01 I like how you're saying that you know you're wearing the personality because it's not as if this personality is the be all and end all of who you are. It's not a complete definition of someone. It's really just in that moment what you are taking on are those personality traits and then you're able to, you know, morph through them as needed. Is that kind of your understanding of how these work?
Charlena Smith: 27:26 Absolutely. You can also define it as armor. So like you know, you have who you're wearing and we'd like that glamorous reference, but a lot of times what we're actually doing is wearing armor and our personalities, our armor to deflect or to protect us. And when you take that armor off, who you are underneath of it, that vulnerable space, that's who you really are. But we use our personalities to cover it up and to protect us and we use it to, oh well I'm a go getter. Oh well I'm just super chill so I don't get upset about things. And that's armor. It's like you might really be upset, but you're using that to guard yourself.
Dina Cataldo: 28:01 So what's the next personality trait you want to talk about?
Charlena Smith: 28:05 The next is a person of depth. This one is so fascinating. It's a lot of artists. This one is the furthest one from me. So it's always interesting to like really, really go and do, these are the people that don't have problems with their tear ducts, you know, like very [unintelligible]. So in touch with their feelings, I am so envious sometimes when I see, um, my sister's a woman of death and she can access feelings. Like she just knows what she feels immediately. It takes me, even after all this work, all these years, I have to sit in silence and really think about how I feel because I don't know, unless I give myself space to find out. And I hope that one day maybe that'll be the fastest process. It gets quicker and quicker, but she knows it in the second that it happens. She knows exactly how she feels. She can explain how she feels, she can like express all the things why this kind of order of things happened and it caused this ripple effect. And that's what brought it out in her. These people also tend to be very unique. You know, we joke and say God breaks the mold when they make them. They're all very unique characters. Their personalities are so beautiful and different and a little bit wild. You know, like all over the place. The threat is when you can get caught in your own drama.
Dina Cataldo: 29:18 Oh do I know some people who do that?
Charlena Smith: 29:22 Yeah. So like they feel their feelings so well sometimes they feel them a little bit too well and they dwell in the negative like, oh, it's all about me, so poor me, woe is me. And you see that start happening. That's a very, very sure sign to pull yourself out of that.
Dina Cataldo: 29:38 Yeah. That's one where you know, I know we all know somebody who does that. We all know somebody who's this personality type very in touch with their feelings. I, you know, seen so many who are very charismatic and you know, can connect really well with other people and then they have this, I don't know what it is. Is it an underlying insecurity maybe? Or is it just that they're so connected with their feelings that they can't help but go down that road and start dwelling on that?
Charlena Smith: 30:07 They seem to feel like no one understands them. They seem to feel like these are actually like they're feeling things that no one else has felt and that their feelings really are deeper and truer than other people's feelings. And that might be the case. Again, this is like the, for this one for me.
New Speaker: 30:23 So the more research I do, the more I learn about these guys. But yes, they live in those feelings and they really feel like nobody, they feel alone. Sometimes they get stuck in this feeling of isolation, like nobody gets them. And that's a hard place to be. You know? Like when you feel really that isolated in that alone and that's where they start getting into the woe is me and the nobody understands and there's no way to fix this because nobody's ever gone through it before.
Dina Cataldo: 30:50 You know, I'm curious, earlier you were talking about any Enneagrams and where some of the ideas for each of these personality types came from. Can you explain a little bit about that because I'm sure there's people listening that are saying, “oh my gosh, this is just so cookie cutter. What are you just trying to put me into a box? Yes, I recognize some of these things, but no, I never feel these things.” Can you kind of explain where these ideas to create these personality types to define these personality types came from?
Charlena Smith: 31:18 So the Enneagram is nine personality types that are in the shape of an Enneagram.
Dina Cataldo: 31:23 What is an Enneagram, I need you to break this down is a visual, let me, I have a picture right here. Oh, your listeners are just listening.
Dina Cataldo: 31:31 Yeah, but we can describe it just like we're doing a record in the courtroom.
Charlena Smith: 31:35 It is a nine point star, so you have a circle with a ninth was star in the middle and they're connected. Each line is connected. So for example, the first personality type that I talked about, the person of integrity is actually connected to a person of joy and a person of death, which is interesting. It's where you go when you're in a healthy state versus where you go when you're in an unhealthy state. So that is what the Enneagram is and the personality types that I'm talking about right now, we've also use a little bit of Big Five, which is the personality types that most scientists use. So, it's, they hook your brain up to all of these scans and ask you a series of questions and based on what parts of your brain light up, if I ask you a feeling question, does your brain go crazy?
Charlena Smith: 32:23 If I ask you a thinking question, does your brain go crazy? So that puts you more in the line of we pull those and put them into these nine. Then we also use something called Strengthfinders, which is Clifton. Uh, you might be familiar with this in a lot of times in groups and anytime you're building a team, it's really, really helpful because if you build a team based on your strengths, then you can virtually eliminate weaknesses, which is really helpful. I mean, nobody is perfect and in and of themselves, everyone has a strength. Everyone also inherently has a weakness or something I'm not as strong at, so a team built that way can be far more effective.
Dina Cataldo: 33:00 I'm going to link to everything that we're talking about here, so I'll have something that will link to Ennagrams, something that will link to strengthfinders if you're not familiar with that. And also I'm going to locate something on Big Five for the site. So yes, all of these are really interesting and it's just one way of looking at feelings and getting us in touch with what we're feeling and why you might be feeling it. So it, you know, if you're listening to this and you're saying, oh my gosh, I can't believe that you guys were trying to put people in boxes, that's not what we're doing. We're trying to create awareness.
Charlena Smith: 33:32 We do the exact opposite. It's actually in our very first definition of things is that we are not letting you in a box. We are going to let you read all of these different things and you decide who you are. You're the only one that knows who you are. And we are not putting you in a box for showing you a box that you've been operating in. Like these are the ways that you've been operating. You're not hardwired that way, but this is just what you've been doing and these are the results you've gotten. These are facts. This is the box that you've been operating in. Here's the way out. Should you want to take it? Like just the self awareness of knowing, hey, you know what? Every time somebody says this to me, it causes me to feel this and then I go eat a bag of Doritos or like those kinds of things. If you start noticing those kinds of patterns, you can fix them and that's just something that you do. You're not broken, you know, you're not stuck that way. It's just awareness and being able to change those patterns
Dina Cataldo: 34:23 And that's what I love about coaching is that it gives people an opportunity to start recognizing where they've been working from and start to make changes because we can't see how to get outside of the box from inside the box. We need something or someone to help us reflect what's happening in our life so we can get some awareness.
Charlena Smith: 34:44 100% we call that the pickle in the jar scenario. So like if you have a jar and it's a clear jar and it's a pickle, everybody knows, everybody can read the label. That is a pickle. The only person that doesn't know it's a pickle as the pickle pickle is in the jar and can't see the label. You know, it's just so obvious when you look at it and you can see things that are going on, but you need that perspective shift. And that's not a fault. That's just everyone means that perspective shift. It's a brilliant, wonderful gift. And we have previously in life done civilization together in villages and communities and have that reflected back to us. We've had that immediate response and feedback from our peers and the more technology steps in and blesses us in all these amazing ways.
Charlena Smith: 35:26 It also can be a bit of a wedge we don't have as many years because now people only see what we want them to see. So it's hard to get true authentic feedback if you're only presenting the AE role on social media of how perfect your life is. Nobody really knows the real you. So that is where we really try to dive in and pull back those layers and talk about like real life r e a l versus real life IRL.
Dina Cataldo: 35:52 Yeah. And you know, I think that's why there are certain people who are so popular on social media is because they seem to be able to let down these walls. Like they seem to be able to connect in ways that we don't always get in real life anymore because we're not seeing people for who they are. We're seeing the best pictures, you know, from Bali or they don't see all the crap.
Charlena Smith: 36:16 Right, the edited, “”All the laundry is right to the right. But if I edit that out, I can do this wonderful screengrab and just blur all the laundry out and you just see like your kid, right?
Dina Cataldo: 36:26 Right? It's the best. Okay. So let's talk about the fifth personality.
Charlena Smith: 36:31 That is a person of insight. This might actually be a lot of lawyers and attorneys, I'm curious to see in our group parents, we've had mostly integrity and action, but insight is it's like super brilliant. These people are super brilliant. They're able to think in ways that our brains don't necessarily process. So you're looking at a lot of engineers, you're looking at a lot of scientists, that's the career path that they tend to go towards because their brains are always asking why. So for example, a person of insight, if you tell them the world is round, it's not flat, they're going to say, well, why? I'm standing on the flat ground. Why? What makes you say it's round? And if you explain to them grabbing in theory in the sun and the rotation and all that stuff, they're going to say, oh, that's really interesting. And then they're going to go and do their own research to prove that theory. They are not going to take your word for it because they want to understand and truly know and experience why.
Dina Cataldo: 37:24 I think I've dated that guy before.
Charlena Smith: 37:29 I might have married one. So my husband works at NASA and NASA is full of these folks. It's so funny. I go in and it's like none of them are willing to just accept answers, which is great because they're exploring the universe.
Dina Cataldo: 37:44 We definitely need people like that.
Charlena Smith: 37:44 We definitely need people like that thousand percent but sometimes conversations are like, Oh Heavens to Betsy. Like can ms just be the answer? Do we need to prove it again? And again and again. Like as long as you're in a healthy place and you're recognizing that like that's what you're doing. It's so funny and it's great. But sometimes these folks have to be careful because they can get into a negative where they are having to reprove theories that are already proven and they don't trust that someone before them has done the work properly. So if you start to get into that pattern of realizing that you're not trusting what someone's telling you now, sometimes there's a reason to not trust what someone's telling you.
Charlena Smith: 38:21 I mean you want to do your own research, but at some point you can't go back and collect all the slides and look under all the microscopes and you know, do all the theories you have to build upon the work of people that have come before you and you'd have to be able to trust that. And this can be really, really hard for people that are wearing this personality because they're just very skeptical in this phase and they haven't necessarily learned to trust the knowledge of others.
Dina Cataldo: 38:46 Hm, I can't relate to that entirely. I have to say. I mean, I do like to fact check, so I'll see something on social media and then my little Spidey sense goes off and I'm like, no, that doesn't sound right. And then I do some research on it.
Charlena Smith: 39:01 That's probably your integrity coming through. Is that right or wrong necessarily. “Why?”
Dina Cataldo: 39:09 Well, you know, like when there's a quote associated with someone?
Charlena Smith: 39:12 Oh my gosh. So many misquotes.
Dina Cataldo: 39:15 And then like someone sincerely posted this, you know, believing it's right. And I'm like, that doesn't sound right. And that's when I start googling and then I have to post something. I have to tell them.
Charlena Smith: 39:25 yeah! I can't let this go, and it's just wrong, and you're misleading so many people and then the next generation of humans will think it's right.
Dina Cataldo: 39:33 That's exactly what I'm thinking!
Charlena Smith: 39:38 It's true. I feel you. Especially on the quotes, I think because words are kind of my jam and if it's something is misquoted by someone, I'm like, Oh, you're killing me.
Dina Cataldo: 39:46 Yeah, I mean it could be a perfectly good quote. Just don't tell me that Einstein said it. It gives it like this false weight.
Charlena Smith: 39:53 Right? There's lots of people say amazing things. It doesn't have to all go back to Albert Einstein or Abraham Lincoln
Dina Cataldo: 40:00 You can quote yourself. I got to tell you, when I started putting little quotes with myself on things, I've gotta say, I was like, oh, this is weird. Is this like a thing? But no. Sometimes we say things that make sense and that other people will want to hear to hear.
Charlena Smith: 40:16 Absolutely. And a lot of times it's not necessarily a completely original thought, it's just put out in a different way that people can understand it.
Charlena Smith: 40:24 So you could say something one way and it not resonate land with someone at all. And then someone like you could take your twist on it and put say the same thing, like, “oh, I received this information, let me tell you how I processed it.” And you doing that processing for another person, it makes it a completely different ballgame. And so they can then take that knowledge and actually run with it. Whereas before it was just words.
Dina Cataldo: 40:45 Yeah. And I think so many of us discount and minimize our ability to do that and to really impact somebody else. And you know, it took me some time to work through that because that was definitely me minimizing my importance in my own little world, you know? And we tend to do that I think as a whole. Like I think I can generalize with that. I mean this is fascinating. Okay, sorry to go off of that tangent. What is number six?
Charlena Smith: 41:12 Okay, so that is a person of duty. Here we are talking about our loyalists. They are, I like to say kind of loyal to a fault, you know like they are, it's duty first duty, second duty third. You get a lot of military in this kind of scenario. And again, that's the personality you're wearing. People when they go into the military, it might not feel that way, but coming out, when you're in those conditions, you almost have to wear that armor. You have to adhere to this hierarchy and you have to bend to the will of your commander, if you will. So yeah, they are all about duty, first duty, second duty, and it's really tremendous. If you have one of these people on your team, it's amazing because they have your back no matter what.
Charlena Smith: 41:52 You do not have to worry about this person talking smack about you and you're not around, you know, like they are who they are, they're true to themselves. And you also don't really have to worry about them not liking you and not telling you. Like, I'll be lik”e, no, I disagree with you and you're not my kind of people”, you know. And I find that to be very helpful. I don't know about anybody else, but yeah, so people have duty. It's just very straightforward. They believe in what they believe in. They are very, very loyal to their causes and their people. It's really cool to watch. It's really cool to see that go down. So that is absolutely amazing. Now I think the obvious hangup with that sometimes can be if you were loyal to something, sometimes it's really difficult for these folks to see, say you're in alignment with the movement and you are really in alignment with that movement and then the movement starts to shift and it can be really difficult mentally. They've aligned with this movement. The movement starts to move and what they don't realize is that the movement was originally in alignment with their values, but the movements values have changed and it's really hard for these folks to identify the difference. Like they're so loyal to the movement that they don't realize they need to be true to themselves first, and that's where it can get a little bit murky.
Dina Cataldo: 43:03 Yeah, that is something that, I mean over the last couple hundred years we have shifted the definition of a Republican and a Democrat.
Charlena Smith: 43:12 The exact example I was thinking of. Yeah,
Dina Cataldo: 43:15 I mean these are concepts that you know, many of us identify with and follow without thinking, you know, whatever side it might be. When in reality these concepts have shifted definition. So it's really up to us to find that alignment and where we stand. Like personally, I'm not a member of either party because the concepts of each of these parties shifts depending on like the wind right now it's just something that I don't feel right You know, following one party is together. But there might be a certain person who is in alignment with my values or you know, something like that. But it's really important to know that, you know, we identify so closely with these concepts that do change over time and to really get in touch with our feelings about, you know, are they working for us right now?
Charlena Smith: 44:14 And even another example is a friend say you've had a childhood friend. A lot of these are, you've had a childhood friend since second grade, you know, and they're just your bestie and you know, say you are, you know, this is 20, 30 years later and there's still your bestie, quote unquote. And it is so hard for someone wearing the personality of duty to let go of that friendship, even if it's not serving them. So save his friend is absolutely toxic for them. They, they're trying to break up their marriage. They are a wedge between them and their kids that are families. They are a negative influence in every way, shape and form. It's still so difficult if you're wearing this personality of duty to let that friendship go because you feel like that's part of who you are. Staying loyal to them defines you. And that can get a little bit tricky. It can be such a blessing and it can be a big curse as well if you don't identify and let it go.
Dina Cataldo: 45:08 Yeah, that's a great example. What's your personality number seven you have for us?
Charlena Smith: 45:12 Ooh, it's a person of joy.
Dina Cataldo: 45:14 Ooh, I like that!
Charlena Smith: 45:16 Yes. These folks are my favorite. I just went camping with a woman of joy, uh, this weekend and I have to tell you, she made the whole experience so much better. People have joy. It's exactly what it sounds like. They just, the ones that are always light and everything is always fun and like you can go bankrupt and they're like, “oh, but isn't this so cool. We get to see the ins and outs of the financial system!” They're just absolutely so much fun to be around just so, so, so much fun. Always the life of the Party always up for an adventure. A lot of times if you see people that are backpacking through Europe, earth, things like that, that are just off on this constant and venture, they're wearing a personal joy in that season. They're letting go of a lot of the responsibility of standard normal life, if you will, and just going with the flow and letting life take him where it takes them.
Charlena Smith: 46:04 It's a beautiful thing to witness. I think that I really, really hope that every person in the life gets to experience wearing a person join at some point in a healthy state. It's very light and free and joyful, and it's just a really, really wonderful feeling to just not have a lot of worries and things like that. So that's in a healthy state for a person of joy. Now, if you're wearing a person of joy all the time and you're not willing to look at potentially, I mean, life isn't always sunshine and rainbows, right? So you need to be willing to take that hat off and or take that dress off if you will take that armor off and see that sometimes there are consequences to your actions. So even though, yes, it seemed like a really good idea to hop on a plane and get to another country, you know, you might not have a way back and then your family gets sick and you have no way to give back to them and then have to deal with those consequences. I mean, and it goes all over the map can be from severe to not sphere. But yeah, learning to recognize that your decisions have consequences. It's not just joy, joy, joy, joy, joy. It's really wonderful to be able to embrace that. But mmm taking it too far. It can be detrimental.
Dina Cataldo: 47:15 Yeah. And recognizing that sometimes you gotta take it off. I mean, they would be really weird to be in that place of joy at a funeral or, you know, you've got all of these things that are happening to you or to your loved ones and you're in this armor of joy. So recognizing our feelings is really important in that.
Charlena Smith: 47:35 Absolutely. And sometimes they have a hard time in that season or while they're wearing that, it can be difficult to recognize the sadness or the very deep scarring. Sometimes it's because they were very deeply wounded at some point. And in order to mend that wound, they mended it with joy. It's like a Band-Aid, you know? And they put that over it. And if you haven't actually dealt with what's underneath that Band-Aid, it's going to come back up again. Yeah.
Dina Cataldo: 47:56 Personality number eight?
Charlena Smith: 47:58 Yes, these are people of strength, strong, strong, strong, strong, strong people, opinionated. One of the women in my program as an attorney and she is such a woman of strength, um, she's so strong. She's so like you never have to worry about her beating around the bush. Um, there is no hesitation and thought between what you think and what you say because it's usually right. Like your thoughts are right. You don't have to have much of a filter when you're a person of strength because you know, you're going to say what you were thinking anyway. Incredibly loyal. People of strength protect their circle, their family, their clients. If you're an attorney, whoever they consider to be under their wing is protected 150%. So yeah, it's strong, strong, strong. Now where I can go a little bit too far is this is where you almost get into like bullying. A person of strength when it's taken too far can appear mean, can appear brash, can appear. If they're in an unhealthy situation and they're cornered and they feel like they need to protect their family or they need to protect their people, they will lash out and sometimes not great ways to protect and to preserve what's theirs and to keep that continuity and to keep everyone safe.
Charlena Smith: 49:14 They feel like they're the protectors of their people.
Dina Cataldo: 49:16 It's really interesting. I kind of identify with that. Personality number nine?
Charlena Smith: 49:20 Yeah, so nine is a person of unity. These are the peace makers and this is actually me. This is who I've been wearing for a little while. It's funny, I met personal community with a very strong person of strength wing. That's another way we look at the Enneagram is the numbers next to you. It can be wings. So you are a little bit of both. It's a complex combination for me cause you know peace makers, people of unity, they want to create harmonious environments. They want to keep the peace in there and conflict is not appealing. So they're usually the negotiators and mediators, the ones that when everybody has escalated and at a 10 they can bring it down to a two and it's a compromise.
Charlena Smith: 49:59 It's working together to get to a win win situation. They're all about the wind wins. It's just an incredible gift of bringing people together that normally wouldn't be brought together. They're the unifiers of our world. So they bridge frequently. If you see someone making great strides in bridging religions, cultures, community is there. Usually people have unity because that's their gift or they're wearing that in that season in order to bring those different communities together. Now where it can get a little bit sticky is that they're so busy bringing other people together are so aware of what other people need, that they forget what they need themselves. And you can get lost and it's really easy to lose the definition of who you are. So sometimes people have unity will be passionately bringing causes together and rallying troops and moving the needle for world peace. And they don't even really know what they're passionate about, which is in crazy cause they're doing so many amazing things.
Charlena Smith: 50:56 But it's really hard for them to get in touch with themselves because they're so worried about everybody else.
Dina Cataldo: 51:01 Okay. Wow. Okay. So you've given us these 9 personality traits and what I'm curious about is let's say that someone finds themselves relating very much to several of these different personality types because I imagine that's what's going through their head. Cause I can see that happening for me. Where is the work for people who want to, you know, try on another personality or maybe address some of the dangers that you've addressed in a particular personality trait?
Charlena Smith: 51:34 Well, number one, do at least a little bit of research to figure out. I would suggest the history of the enneagram. It's a great book. It's a little bit of a thick read, but you can go through and read like the summaries of each of the types. And a lot of times what happens is you can knock out three or four.
Charlena Smith: 51:49 I am pretty sure that I've never worn these three or four personalities like mine. I'm not a person of depth. It's really hard for me to even understand how someone could be a person of depth even though I was raised with one. So it's just like some of them will stick out to you like, no, I don't identify with that at all. And some of them he'll be like, well this one, this one, this one and this one actually at different times of life sound like me. So it's not really about boxing yourself into one of those categories. What it's about is seeing, oh my gosh, I have that pattern. I do that thing where I unify people and I worry about what everybody else wants and when the family goes on vacation, all I do is do a poll of where everyone else wants to go and I'm not included in that whole like if you start seeing that happen, it's like, oh wait a minute.
Charlena Smith: 52:31 “My opinion counts too. Do I have an opinion?” And taking a step back and actually thinking about that because we can build up while it seems like it's okay right now. If you continue to do that over and over and over again, it's like a pressure valve. Eventually you're going to pop in and say, why don't I have a voice? Well, you don't have a voice because you've never made it hurt. It's up to you to define that space. It's up to you to figure out what those patterns are and to change the steps so that you get a different outcome and it's a really easy way of doing it. If you see that you have a natural tendency to do a behavior that you do not like, then see if it falls into one of the personality categories. And then there are lots of ways in lots of, I can give you tips and things like that on your when you post this, a link to it to just change.
Charlena Smith: 53:15 So for example, one of mine is again, I'm a person of unity and when there's conflict, sometimes I retreat to a Netflix binge. Like, I just want to watch something that is funny and isn't complex, doesn't it make me think like I'm dealing with this really hard thing over here and I just want to go watch Netflix and I have this intention of watching 15 minutes to just chill out and laugh. And then two or three hours later I'm still sitting there and I'm like, oh my gosh, did I just seriously sit here and just binge like an entire season of up shit's creek or something like that. Even like really, really funny. And I'm like, the head is terrible. And sometimes I do want to intentionally do that. Sometimes my day is so bad that I want to watch two hours of TV. Sometimes I do it and it's not serving me. I actually have all this other work to do and that just made this so much worse. So we have a sticker on my remote that actually says, do you really want to do this? And sometimes I look at that sticker and I go, darn right, I do this day. It's been hard. I am done. And sometimes I look at the sticker and I'm like, no, you know what? You have more things to do today that you need to get done and this is not what you need to be doing right now. So that's just a really silly, easy example of ways that you can put a different step in your patterns so that you get different results.
Dina Cataldo: 54:33 I like that. I like that a lot. So before I ask you where our listeners can find you, do you have any parting words?
Charlena Smith: 54:43 Oh my goodness. I think people really forget that everything they need is in them right now. You are not less or not somehow lacking you. Everything you need is any right now. You don't need to go looking for it from external sources. And we forget that so much. And it just breaks my heart when I see people that feel incomplete or somehow not whole. Because you are, you might have some work to do, you might have some introspection, some, you know, you need to look inside yourself a little bit, but it's there. You are who you are and where you are supposed to be. Right now.
Dina Cataldo: 55:18 Yes! When I was in Bali, I got this little bracelet it's this little green band with this medallion on it so that I remember when I'm starting to externalize my feelings and starting to think about things that you know, those little stray thoughts that come in that are basically me not reaching for myself and asking myself, “”hey, how am I doing right now? Is this really what I want to do? Is this really what I want to be thinking right now? So just keep doing that check in.
Charlena Smith: 55:47 That's beautiful. I love having that reminder just right there on your wrist to like just point you back in, you know?
Dina Cataldo: 55:53 So far so good.
Charlena Smith: 55:54 That's amazing. I love it.
Dina Cataldo: 55:56 So tell our listeners where they can learn more about you and what you do.
Charlena Smith: 56:00 Sure. Myoptio.org is our website. You can even just Google guided accountability. Guided Accountability is what we really do. We match people together and we provide a framework over a 12 week program to set your goals, define your blueprint, define your values, and then set goals within that blueprint. So a lot of times it ends up looking different, but my optio.org is where it all happens and I do a lot of speaking and things like that. You can see that on there and it's pretty fun. It's pretty awesome. I have one, I actually just had somebody go through the program that is an attorney and she was paired with a stay at home mom and They ended up switching roles. The attorney ended up taking time off to be with her kids for two or three years. I'm a stay at home mom is now in law school. Isn't that awesome? They saw this reflection and the other one's blueprint that they were like, “that's what I want,” and she was like, “no, that's what I want.” And just they both did it so freely, like they feel so much better and they're better parents. They're better spouses, they're better contributing family members. I'm so proud of them,
Dina Cataldo: 56:57 You know? And that's where we know this work. A lot of people think, well, it's selfish to spend so much time on myself, but really what you're doing is a huge benefit to everybody who's around you because only you can change you and boy people want to be around you. When you're happy, they feel taken care of. When you're happy, you show up in life in a different way. When you take care of yourself, then when you are out of touch with yourself
Charlena Smith: 57:21 Mmhmm. It's the oxygen mask on the airplane. That's the analogy everyone uses, but it's so true. If you try to put someone else's oxygen mask on first, you're going to end up passing out and being no good to anyone. If you take care of yourself first, then you can take care of all of those around you and it just spreads and the more you take care of yourself, the greater that ripple is, the more impact you can have, and it's just beautiful to witness.
Dina Cataldo: 57:46 Well, thank you so much for talking with me today, Charlena. I really appreciate it. This has been a really beautiful conversation.
Charlena Smith: 57:51 Yes, thank you for having me!
Dina Cataldo: 57:53 I love talking about this, these different facets of our personality and you know what we see in one another and in ourselves and just it fascinates me to no end.
Charlena Smith: 58:02 It is, it's very interesting and I do want to make sure your listeners know that we are not putting them in a box. Sometimes you have to define things, you have to have a vocabulary in order to talk about it. So that's where we come from. But it's really interesting and I hope that somebody got something out of it.
Dina Cataldo: 58:18 Oh, I'm sure that they did. So thank you so much for joining me and I hope to talk to you soon. Okay?
Charlena Smith: 58:23 Yes, thank you!
Dina Cataldo: 58:25 I hope you had as much fun listening to this conversation with Charlena as I had having it. Join me on Instagram to tell me what's one takeaway you got from this episode. Be sure to tag me there @dina.cataldo
Have a fabulous day and I will talk to you next week.
Dina Cataldo: 58:45 Hi Lawyers. If you love Soul Roadmap Podcasts, I want to tell you about a couple of things that will jumpstart your life. The first is the 10 day lawyer life detox. Be Clear out, stress and overwhelm. In this Self Study Online coaching program, you can learn more at dinacataldo.com/workwithdina
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