#338: How to Build a Book of Business (without Burning Out) with Special Guest Heather Moulder

How to Build a Book of Business (without Burning Out) with Special Guest Heather Moulder

Dina Cataldo (00:01):

Today we are talking about growing your book of business, but this episode is going to apply to you whether or not you're a partner or working in big law or even own your own practice. What you are gonna learn in this episode is going to apply to, you know, matter where you are in your practice. And you are going to hear inspirational stories from my guests this week. So keep listening to get all the goods. Hi, I'm Dina Cataldo, a master coach and ex criminal prosecutor I created. Be a Better Lawyer Podcast for driven lawyers like you who want more from life than sitting behind a desk. You've been playing by other people's rules. Those rules have left you overwhelmed. Unfulfilled, and feeling like a hamster on a wheel. I've been there. I was doing everything people told me to do to be successful, working late nights, weekends, and trying to make everyone happy.

 

Dina Cataldo (00:53):

So why wasn't I happy and I wanted more in life? When was I going to find time to find and pursue that? Well, I did, and I'm sharing with you my secrets to living a happier and more fulfilling life. This podcast gives you a lifetime of wisdom, mindset, principles, and bedrock strategies to give you unshakeable confidence, more time to pursue your goals, a powerful sense of purpose to uplevel your life and law practice and so much more. These are things we were never taught in law school. This podcast bridges the gap between law, school and life. I'm so glad you're here. Let's get started. Hello, my friend. I hope you're having a fabulous week. I have a really special treat for you. It's with great pleasure that I bring on my guest, Heather Mulder. She graciously had me on her podcast. Her podcast is called The Life and Law Podcast, which I suggest you go listen to.

 

Dina Cataldo (01:47):

I'm gonna link to our episode that we had together in the show notes because we're talking about sustainable growth. In this episode, I want to invite you to download my free workbook to help you make more time to grow. It's called Your Step-by-Step Playbook for Creating Effective and Efficient Systems. It went hand in hand with an episode of Be a Better Lawyer, episode 2 92, where I talk about systems creation. You can grab it at dina cataldo.com/systems. That's dina cataldo.com/systems. Alright, let me give you a rundown of what's in store for you to, yes, you're absolutely going to hear about how to grow a sustainable practice where you can grow your book of business without the stress, a practice where you're not burning out. But this episode is about so much more and we cover so much good stuff here in including Heather's burnout story and the moment she realized she needed to change firms.

 

Dina Cataldo (02:51):

And if you're in this position of considering whether you want to stay where you are, you're gonna wanna hear her experience what Heather needed to do to take a first step towards making that change. Because there's always a first step involved, and it's always scary. You're gonna get golden questions that we both pose to you in this episode, and I encourage you to answer them for yourself. If you're not driving, if you're, you know, piddling around the house or doing something, I want you to grab a piece of paper and I want you to jot these questions down and answer them. The people who have the biggest impact in their lives using this podcast are the ones who are answering the questions that are posed in the episodes. So I encourage you to do that. You're also going to hear some of my backstory that I haven't shared much about on this podcast where her and my stories intertwine, and you're gonna hear so much more.

 

Dina Cataldo (03:43):

This was really a great episode. Alright, I think I've given you enough teasers, so let's dive in. I am so glad that I get to bring to you my special guest today, Heather Mulder. She is a former big law partner turned lawyer, leadership and business coach who helps lawyers become happily successful in law and life after over 14 years of private practice where she built a multimillion dollar book of business. And over 25 combined years of lawyering mentoring and coaching lawyers, she's realized that success is created from the inside out. She helps lawyers achieve success on their terms without the need to leave the law or even their law firm behind. Welcome to Be a Better Lawyer Podcast. Heather, thank you so much for being here today.

 

Heather Moulder (04:35):

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about the conversation we're gonna have.

 

Dina Cataldo (04:40):

Yeah, I, you know, when I brought this this topic up to you, I, well, I, I thought of this topic and I thought of you immediately because I know that a lot of what you talk about on your podcast and what you talk about, you know, in your LinkedIn posts, it's, it's really geared towards partners who are growing their books of business. You talk about a lot of other things, but that's a big topic you talk about. Yep. And, you know, we work with similar people, but your background in creating your book of business is an expertise. I just am so happy to get to bring to this podcast and to the people listening,

 

Heather Moulder (05:20):

I'm excited to talk about it. When you asked me and I said, okay, so I could talk about a lot of things, what is it you wanna talk about? And you said it was this. I'm like, oh, yay. Because it's my favorite thing to talk about. <Laugh>.

 

Dina Cataldo (05:30):

I had a feeling you'd be up for it. Yep. So, so let's just kind of jump in. Like, I know I gave you an intro, but can you just jump in and tell me why you're so passionate about helping lawyers and particularly the lawyers that you like to focus

 

Heather Moulder (05:47):

On? So, I feel like there are a lot of coaches out there who deal with getting out of law <laugh>. And, you know, know I wasn't that person who left the law 'cause I hated it. I, I think there's a lot of coaches who did, and they're probably the right people to help people get out of the law because that's what they did. And they know it and they know that place. I don't know that place. <Laugh> <laugh>. I, I actually loved practicing, so I have a little bit of a different story. It's a little aligned to yours, obvi for, you know, this, but your audience is gonna find out. But I had breast cancer at the age of 38, and I had two young kids at the time. They were six and two. My cancer was very aggressive. I was a partner. I had a book of business.

 

Heather Moulder (06:31):

I found a way to keep that book going while I took 10 months off to deal with the cancer without really working by the way. And, you know, came back raring to go thinking, gonna keep going, gonna keep doing this. And a couple of years in I realized, wait, something has changed. And I'm not really quite sure what that thing is, but I need to figure it out because there was this moment I was doing dishes in my kitchen and I had this, what I can only describe as like an out of body experience. And I am not a woo girl, FYI at all. It sounds very woo 'cause it, it felt very woo at the time. But I was looking at myself from above. I'm looking at myself going, she looks like me when she speaks. She sounds might like me, but she doesn't feel like me anymore.

 

Heather Moulder (07:18):

Like, who am I? And what's going on here? So that was kind of the starting point for me to leaving the law and starting my coaching practice. Hmm. Fast forward a couple of years and I've kind of figured out I wanted to leave. And the thing that I realized was I did still really enjoy the practice, but some of my values that I'd had that made me a great lawyer, made me love the practice had really changed through that cancer experience. And when I had had cancer and took, I took 10 full months off without really doing much of anything. And I had two young kids and my husband was working full time and we had people coming out from everywhere. People we hardly knew people from our school that we didn't even, like, we knew their name, but we didn't know them. Really helping us, taking my kids to places, getting them out and about bringing us meals almost daily. And I realized that that individualized attention had really, really helped us. And what I was now craving was a way to individually help people. So service is a big value of mine, always has been. The value got redefined through that experience. And I had been one of those lawyers who went to law school with a purpose. I really wanted to be a lawyer of like, since I was 11 <laugh>.

 

Dina Cataldo (08:35):

Wow. Are you kidding? I don't know that I've really talked to anybody who's been like, yes, I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 11. Wow. Well,

 

Heather Moulder (08:41):

My mom had a friend who was in law school and it seemed really cool and interesting. And there was this show called The Paper Chase and this totally, oh

 

Dina Cataldo (08:48):

Yeah, <laugh>.

 

Heather Moulder (08:49):

I got really into that got me into the launch. This is what I thought legal, you know, legal work was like, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But going to law school, I loved it. I loved being a lawyer. I loved the, the challenge of it. I loved the thinking processes, I loved all of that. But a couple of years in, I was one of those burned out lawyers. Hmm. And I went through this experience of looking around going, wait so many people around unhappy, so many lawyers are in this place of complete burnout, and yet they're still pushing through until they just can't do it anymore. Why? Like, this should be more fun. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I did find a way to have more fun with it. And I did turn it around. And so I was looking back on my life and I was looking around and I'm like, I can help people and I can help them not get out of the law, but stay and actually succeed in a way that feels good. Because success isn't success just because you got a lot of money. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and prestige. And people think well of you <laugh> you, you need to enjoy who you are, how you show up every single day. How, what your life looks like, how it feels, the integration of what you're doing versus how you, you're able to show up at home with friends, having hobbies. Right. Like, not a lot of lawyers have hobbies anymore once they've practiced for a while. You know, helping them to be whole people with a whole life.

 

Dina Cataldo (10:12):

Yes. And it's so funny because I am incredibly woo and it's like, I don't even talk about how woo I am, but I am like on that spectrum of, whoa, woo. But <laugh>, the experience that you expressed is something that so many people might have just written off. And that experience was so important. Even if, you know, you're, you may not have thought you know anything about in terms of what it meant physiologically or energetically. Like, you know, you know, people like me might Right. <Laugh>, you're, you had this opportunity to create a, a perspective outside of yourself that coaches can give people. But we hardly ever even tap into. So like you have that moment where you said, wait a minute. Like there's something else happening. Like, I am not aligned the way that I used to be and I'm noticing it. And then you went out and you decided, okay, what's different?

 

Dina Cataldo (11:18):

You asked yourself questions, which is so important. Anyone listening if you're experiencing Yeah. Like this experience where you maybe feel a little off. You're maybe not as fulfilled in your practice. Pay attention to these questions. 'cause They're so important to ask yourselves and Heather, ask them, I ask them of myself. It's like, what's going on? And what, what is it that I can do to even just take the first step to move more in alignment with who I want to be? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I'm curious, you know, I wanna talk about some of the other things you mentioned, but I'm curious what that very first step was for you,

 

Heather Moulder (11:58):

<Laugh>. It was to have a conversation with my husband about it actually, because I realized that I would do nothing if I didn't say it out loud to somebody else. Mm-Hmm. I think we tend to have these moments in our lives where we think, oh, something's off. Well, I gotta deal with it. And we keep it inside of us. Yeah. And you know, fast forward five years and we still haven't done anything about it. And it's even worse because the one thing I definitely have learned throughout my life is when those things happen and we think, well, I'll just wait. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, there's no re I'll stay on the same path. At least I know what that path is. <Laugh> you actually don't.

 

Dina Cataldo (12:40):

Yeah.

 

Heather Moulder (12:41):

‘Cause staying on that same path changes you Yeah. In ways you won't, don't rec. So you, one day you wake up and you don't even recognize yourself anymore. There is risk, there is risk in not doing anything just as much, if not more. And oftentimes it's a lot worse risk in that way than starting down that path. So yeah. Saying it out loud to my husband, I knew I needed to, it was the scariest thing I ever did. And he was like, do you need to stop? Are are you ready to quit now? What do you like his mind's going And he's a very non woo person too. Right. Very like salt of the earth. Like let's tackle this problem. Right. And figure it out. So his mind's going, okay, financially, can we handle this? What do we have to do here? <Laugh>,

 

Dina Cataldo (13:25):

It's already in doing mode. I'm very, yes. I definitely,

 

Heather Moulder (13:28):

Yes. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Step back. I need to take the next, I'm still gonna practice. I'm still gonna do my things. I just need you to know this and I'm gonna start exploring and figuring out what else I wanna do. So the next, the second stop, just so you know, was, okay, let's start asking questions about what interests me, what excites me? What has, you know what might something else look like? And I explored, I went from nutrition to like work-life balance coaching to all these different things. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And ultimately it was a friend who I had lunch with that, that's the other thing. I started telling others I trusted about this feeling that was going on. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because other people can really help you

 

Dina Cataldo (14:09):

<Laugh>. Yes.

 

Heather Moulder (14:10):

Yeah. When you stay stuck in your head, you don't help yourself, you spin. Yes. But when you say it out loud to other people, they can suggest things because they know you. They see strengths in you. They see things in you that you may not even realize are there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she looked at me as like, Heather, have you thought of coaching? I think you'd be really good at it. 'cause She's a coach. Mm-Hmm. That was the seed that got planted. That ultimately, I think it was about six months later after I'd gone through all these other things, made the decision, I am going to join a coach school and do it on the side and see what it's like.

 

Dina Cataldo (14:42):

You know, it's so funny. Your path and my path are very similar. Like after my diagnosis. And I just started trying everything. 'cause I, I knew that, you know, chemo felt like a vacation. I knew that was wrong. <Laugh>. I'm like, why does this feel good compared to my trial practice? This does not make sense. And so my first step, 'cause you know, I, I didn't have a partner or anything like that. My first step was just, well, let's just explore what's out there. So I did yoga, teacher training. I painted, I tried running, which it turns out I wasn't a fan. But now I'm apparently becoming a fan. I don't know. I go through, apparently I'm going through a, a transition with that. I tried, you know, starting a tea business, you know, and I, and in that process of trying things, I discovered I loved business.

 

Dina Cataldo (15:30):

Yeah. I loved marketing. I, and then I found out about coaching through it too. And I was like, what is this thing called coaching? And I, and I basically, you know, end of story. Right. But it's just so fascinating when we allow ourselves just to take that first step Yeah. And then to explore and play. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> how we can a just find these connections for ourselves. But then it's important not to get frustrated because it takes that experimentation. And then in that moment that you're ready, some kind of data will drop. Like, it'll be a friend who walks into your life and says, what about coaching?

 

Heather Moulder (16:10):

Right. Right. And you have to explore though. That's the one thing, and this is where lawyers get messed up the most. And, and this happens in their practices too. Okay. So we are so afraid of trying new things and it quote unquote, not being the right thing, not working out, being a mistake, all of that, that we don't even try. And yet if you just shift it a little bit and go, okay, I actually have to explore to see if I even like this. Yeah. To see if this is even something that could work. You cannot know if it stays stuck in your head. You can only know if you go out and try the thing. Yeah. And oftentimes the first thing isn't the thing. The second thing isn't either, you know, it takes some time, but it's, as you said, data, it gives you new and better data about okay, what is gonna be the thing? What might be the thing that works? And it helps you get to the place that ultimately you want to be at.

 

Dina Cataldo (17:05):

I think this is a really good transition to talk about partners Mm-Hmm. Who maybe are in a place where they, they're well, they're doing well financially. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they're, they're doing well. They've got their clients coming in. And not only that, they've got lots of opportunities coming to them and they have lots of opportunities they wanna seek out. And so they're doing all the things, but they're noticing you're laughing. That's part of the, I'm going with this. You're laughing because I think, you know, they're, they're noticing how stressed out and overwhelmed they are, but they keep doing the same thing and not getting that awareness and then not even knowing what the first step is to, to even understanding what's going on because they think they're doing the right things because they're eyes focused on building business, building security for a family you know, starting to really create nest eggs and, you know, investments and all of that. And their brain is stuck on, I need more clients.

 

Heather Moulder (18:19):

Right.

 

Dina Cataldo (18:19):

And so I'm curious, like, coming from your perspective, did you experience this or did you witness this?

 

Heather Moulder (18:27):

Okay. So I witnessed it in a big way all the time. I, when I say I was in that burnout mode early on, I had this moment of, okay, what is going on here and how can I fix it? And the first thing I did is I looked around at the partners in my then current firm. And I noticed something, I noticed a, that 90% of them were not happy. But there was a 10% like population. They're like, they seem pretty happy, they have pretty decent practices and they're more balanced. Like, what's going on here? And I realized they did things very differently than everybody else. Hmm. So we, lawyers, we are, we love our gold stars. We love to be told, we're great. We get a little into our ego at times. Mm-Hmm. We love to compete. We, and it, it leads us on this path of constantly going after those gold stars.

 

Heather Moulder (19:16):

But the problem is those gold stars are, you know, the standards are set by other people. They're not our own. And that, that is where I realized, oh, I'm not gonna do it this way. So I left that firm, went to another firm. It's funny 'cause I went from a regional firm to a big law firm and actually made my life in a big law firm and was very happy. Nice. But it was a big law firm that was very entrepreneurial and kind of let you do your own thing, <laugh>. So that's why I went there so that I could build the practice I wanted. And the real difference for that I saw of those smaller percentage of lawyers that were really happy, who were partners, they did do things differently. They also understood that there are trade-offs in life. And so they were very intentional about the trade-offs that they would make. What is worth it, what is not. It's an intentionality and a strategy that you really bring to into play. And it, yes, it sometimes means not making as much money, but let me tell you, you're still making really great money. So why does it matter if you're at least happy? Right.

 

Dina Cataldo (20:18):

Yeah. And it's so interesting because I think that as lawyers, when you're in a practice, like this was my experience, and this is kind of what you're expressing in a way, is when I was practicing as a criminal prosecutor, I hired a coach and the coach actually offered to me the question, like, what if you could do something else? Like, what if you could just like move to a firm? My brain couldn't even get me there. At that point. I had just started with my coach and it was just like, I couldn't even see myself moving from my current practice to practicing some other law. Like my brain exploded. So how was that, was that easy for you to say, okay, well this particular law firm isn't working for me. I enjoy the law. I don't like the way they're doing X, y, z so let me look for something else. Like, was that an easy process for you or did you just say, Nope, I'm, I know what I want.

 

Heather Moulder (21:18):

No, no. It took me, so I did not know coaching at the time. Coaching wasn't even a big thing back then in general, and certainly was not known in the legal field. So I kind of flailed around for a couple of years, <laugh> figuring this out. Got it. So it took me a good two and a half years to mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> watching, thinking, transforming internally. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I think the first piece for me was realizing I have to have boundaries and I have to start taking care of myself first. Because if I can't, I won't be here for very long. And I can't do work for others to the, you know, level that I would like. Yeah. And something funny happened when I started that is, you know, six months later, people started noting how much better my work product was, how much, even though I had boundaries, even though I said no, even though I prioritized myself.

 

Heather Moulder (22:07):

So that was kind of that starting point. And then it just kind of like built from there. And over time, and at the time I did not have language around this because again, coaching wasn't a thing. This is, as a coach, we talk about values all the time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I started getting into why did I choose to do this? What's most important to me? How does that fit in with the rest of my life? And it became a very values based exercise. So once I kind of got into what my values were, and I don't remember if I what I called them or if I called him anything, but I knew family, service, connection, freedom, those were kind of like big things for me. Yeah. It became very clear that the firm I was at, it was one of those uber structured, very committed old line, been around forever law firms.

 

Heather Moulder (22:55):

And it just wasn't a good place for me. I loved the lawyers, they did great work. They were nice people, but structurally it wasn't a good fit. It was a very toxic fit for me. And I finally could see why. And so that was when, okay, I gotta find another place, but I can't find another law firm like this. And so at the time, I was scared to death that I'm never gonna find another law firm that's gonna meet my needs. 'cause Most are like this. Right? Mm-Hmm. Which is actually not true. There's a lot of different kinds of law firms out there. Lucky for me, during that process, a law firm came around, opened a new office here in Dallas, Texas, which is where I'm based. I know these things happen, right. For a reason. And it was the perfect place. Very entrepreneurial hiring as a senior associate promises of partnership. I could build my own book. I could even get started before making partner. They lived up to that. And it, it gave, it, it fit my freedom, my service. It still did a type of law that was interesting to me. I was a finance lawyer. I was not a litigator, different type of finance, but it was more challenging and interesting. It's, that kind of opened up a new world for me. It was just like the, the perfect thing that came along at the perfect time.

 

Dina Cataldo (24:04):

You know? I love that you said that. Yeah. I know <laugh> things happen for a reason. Right. But literally, like when I started paying attention, I started seeing things open up for me. And that sounds exactly what's happening for you. The universe has a plan for us, and we may not even know what it is. You may not have even been able to have moved. Even if they had opened two and a half years prior, you might not even have been in a place where you could have gotten yourself in that position. Right. But you put yourself in this position of improving your boundaries and then noticing how putting yourself first really improved your work product and getting all of that feedback. And that puts you in this perfect position so that when the time aligned, you were able to do that. Right. I'm coming from my woo perspective, but I think that that's just beautiful. Right? I mean, I

 

Heather Moulder (24:55):

Like from a non woo perspective, what I like to think of it as, look, I think the opportunities are often there. We have no capability also seeing them

 

Dina Cataldo (25:06):

<Laugh> also

 

Heather Moulder (25:06):

True until we open up to that. So when you get to this place where your mentality's finally ready to open up to that, all of a sudden it feels like opportunities are rushing at you. They were there. Yeah. You just didn't, you couldn't see them.

 

Dina Cataldo (25:20):

Yes. And that's why it's so important to pay attention and to start where you are. Like you don't need to be further ahead because it worked for you like it worked out. Correct. Correct. But one of the things that you said, well, there are a couple things that you said there. One is, for anyone listening to this, go back to the questions that Heather asked around values. Because those questions, if you're not asking those questions of yourself, you are missing out on gold because that's going to give you so much awareness of where you are right now and where you wanna be. And you're going to start gaining these awarenesses that we're talking about, and you're going to start seeing things differently. And you may even start seeing opportunities around you open up that you weren't aware of before, because now you're putting your attention on those particular things that are, are valuable to you.

 

Dina Cataldo (26:09):

Right. And that are not valuable to you. So you are gonna be able to focus your attention differently when you go back and listen to those questions. Right. And you pay attention to like your values. I think that's one thing I wanted to say. The second is, is I wanted to circle back to how people around you started noticing the improvement in your work product when you started putting yourself first. And that brings me back to partners who are working to get the next best thing, you know, the next hot thing, you know, to add to their book of business, but they're not creating a practice that's sustainable. And so they're outta balance and they're not giving themselves what they need to create balance. Right. So I wanna take the conversation up from there. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, what did you, when you start saying, I started to create boundaries and I, and put myself first. I wanna take those two items and I wanna break them down a little bit. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So one is, what does it mean to you to create boundaries when you're working within a law firm?

 

Heather Moulder (27:14):

So <laugh>, really great question because I often get, and you may hear this from your clients too, I get this, this red herring of, well, it's not like I can leave at five 30 every day. Right? That's what they think boundaries are. Right? Right. Not what boundaries are. Right.

 

Heather Moulder (27:29):

So you gotta get really clear about who you wanna be, how you wanna show up and who it is you're there to serve and understand. Like really get into, and this of course gets back to your values because when you do that, it gives you permission internally to then open up and say, okay, this is really what I want and this is really what I don't. And then that showcases, I need rules and standards around these things. To me, boundaries are rules, right? They're your rules for how do people need to treat me? How do I need to ensure I feel right? It, when it comes to interactions with people, when it comes to what you say yes and no to, when it comes to how you respond, when somebody tries to push in on one of those boundaries, the boundary is really just the rule.

 

Heather Moulder (28:24):

Everybody thinks the saying no is the boundary. That's not, it's basically enforcing a boundary in some way, shape, or form. But the boundary itself is what are my rules? So you have to figure that out. And the rules need to come from, okay, who do I wanna be? How do I wanna show up? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Because if you don't do that, and not just at work by the way, because again, you're a whole person. You have an integrated whole life and we've gotta stop compartmentalizing everything. How you show up at work impacts how you show up at home and vice versa. Yes. And what happens in both sides impacts. Right? So stop thinking of 'em as separate. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And what that showed me was very clearly the kind of clients I did and did not wanna work for very clearly the type of partners I wanted to work with and who I did not want to work with. And by the way, every law firm has partners you would like to work with and partners you would not like to work with, no matter how great the firm <laugh>. Right? Yeah. And it's not, it does not mean they're bad people. What it does mean is they conflict or clash in some way, shape or form with your values and who you are and how you wanna show up. And so you need to limit that. And so that's where those rules come into play.

 

Dina Cataldo (29:42):

Yeah. And I think that's so good to recognize because sometimes I'll talk to lawyers and they'll say, well, I don't like my firm because of this partner. And it's like, it's, it's not, you know, like there's other avenues and there's also, I think that's really great information, great data to take back to yourself and say, okay, I don't like being treated like this. I I want to be treated with kindness and you know, <laugh>, I want, you know, I don't want to be thought that you can call me at 10 at night. Like, I want, like there's these different things that, you know, you that are not in alignment with that particular person. Right? Right. And, and if that extends to your whole firm, that definitely gives you the data about, you know, the experience that, you know, you didn't describe that particular experience, but Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it gives you data to make decisions.

 

Heather Moulder (30:37):

Yes. Yes. And, oh, go ahead. Ask the

 

Dina Cataldo (30:40):

Question. No, no, no, go ahead.

 

Heather Moulder (30:41):

Well, I was just gonna say, you know, when it comes to being a partner and trying to build your own business, something that you really wanna ask yourself is, what is it I wanna do? And who is it I wanna do for? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right? We talk a lot when it comes to marketing and business development about niching. And niching Yes. Is important. But we don't go foundationally into what, where to start on niching. Niching isn't just about, I picked this industry or, you know, and market to this industry. It's also about, okay, who, who do I want my clients to be? What industry do I want to be in? Who do I want to be working with colleague peer wise? Who do I want to have on my team? Where do I want to be doing this? In what practice area? With what group of people?

 

Heather Moulder (31:23):

Right. It gets to the what and the who of what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. And if those things are not aligned to your values, you are gonna have a fundamental disconnect with what you're doing. You are not gonna be very happy. You are gonna feel like your workplace is very toxic, because guess what it is for you? 'cause There's a values misalignment. Mm-Hmm. Or a clash there. And it could be as simple as, so I had a client who, when she first came to me, she was like, you know, I'm a healthcare lawyer. I picked this very specifically, I care a lot about all these things in the healthcare industry. Right. And yet, over time, because it was easy, because it was the kind of work that was coming into her firm from a healthcare perspective, her book of business was like 70% clients who were getting into the healthcare industry for the money. Mm-Hmm. They didn't care about people, they didn't care about health. She's very into nutrition. She's very into like holistic wellbeing. None of it was that. And when we dug into it and realized like, this is your real problem, that you are representing people you are completely unaligned with, the answer was very clear. So her boundaries, coming back to boundaries were okay. I say no to this type of work, I start getting out and offloading it. I start going after the stuff that I care about.

 

Dina Cataldo (32:42):

Mm. Yeah. And there's, oh, there's so much I wanna, I want to address that question because I think that's scary for people who have been working so hard to build a book of business and then they realize, oh, wait a minute, I don't like working with 70% of the people that I'm working with. And so tell us the first step. I mean, it's gonna be uncomfortable, let's just start there first. It's gonna be uncomfortable to say no, it's gonna be uncomfortable to say no in terms of like moving forward with saying no to additional work from these people and really building up the belief that you can get more people, move that 30% that you love and make it into a, a huge part where you're still making money. So let's just, let's just take that as a given. It's gonna be uncomfortable. Yep. When the, when you are working with people who are undergoing this transition, this transformation of their practice Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like what do you see aside from the discomfort, the, the biggest thing that comes up for them?

 

Heather Moulder (33:51):

Well, they're all terrified that they're gonna end up underneath a bridge in a box. Because <laugh>,

 

Dina Cataldo (33:57):

Yes.

 

Heather Moulder (33:58):

There is this weird thing amongst lawyers where we think that if somehow we say no to any one thing, it means this huge ripple effect that compounds and compounds and compounds very quickly. Yes. Without us ever being able to intervene in the middle. Right. So a lot of times really the first step is like seeing that for what it is Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and calling it out. We don't realize that's what's actually going on. Yeah. And when you start to call it out and break it down and go really, like, do you think you could do it this way? Or do, and there's also assumptions, right? Going on with that where, well, I'm just gonna say no to everything and it'll all be gone in two months. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, no, that's not actually how it works, <laugh>. Right. You don't have to do it that way if you don't want to. Yeah. So it, a lot of it is, is figuring out the beliefs, the, the, the things that we have going on in our mind, pulling 'em out, parsing 'em out, challenging those because we can't, it's very hard to really start taking that action without getting that out in the open and figuring out what's there and, and calling it out a little bit and saying, okay, yeah, that's, that's probably a little bit ridiculous. Yeah. So now I'm ready to take an actual action step.

 

Dina Cataldo (35:03):

Yeah.

 

Heather Moulder (35:04):

Which I think it, it, it doesn't have to be overnight. Everything doesn't have to be done at once.

 

Dina Cataldo (35:08):

Right. I think our brains as lawyers tend towards that too, is thinking it all has to be done at once. Whether it's doing stuff on your calendar or you know, the work that's coming in, or even making a transition in your business. And you know, when you said that, I mean, those are all things that I needed a coach to help me see, you know, to see, oh, wait a minute. Like, oh, when I'm building my business and I raise my rates that I'm gonna be okay, <laugh>. You know, or if I decide I'm gonna say no to this person because their values don't align with my values, it's gonna be okay. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Because that doesn't, that one decision that you make is not going to have this apocalyptic <laugh>, right. Impact on your, your business, your practice. Like, it, it's just not going to be what your brain initially will always tell you it's gonna be. And we've gotta question that. And if we don't have somebody who's in there who can see what's happening and pauses us and says, hold on, let me question that. Let's actually see what's gonna happen. Let's look at the reality of what can happen and what your options are. It makes it almost impossible to take the next step.

 

Heather Moulder (36:25):

It does. And you know, we also, we go with this assumption of we'll give up everything at once, everything will go to zero. And I have, there's nothing I can do about it. Like, on the other side of it, if you're freeing up time. Right. The biggest thing that lawyers who come to me as far as not being able to do the business development work. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, the thing that they say is, well, I don't have time. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Well, when you say no to those clients, that drain you the most, it's not just about hours, by the way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you are giving up less hours than you realize by saying no to the one client who's really draining on you the most. But what you're also getting rid of is the emotional baggage, the mental drain, the physical exhaustion that comes from having to deal with them. That then frees up so much more energy to do the work that you need to do on the other side to start attracting the clients you actually wanna be working with.

 

Dina Cataldo (37:19):

Yeah. So

 

Heather Moulder (37:20):

We, we don't realize, oh yeah, but then I get to take action items and I'll have the energy for it and I'll have some time for it, and I'll have the ability to finally do it.

 

Dina Cataldo (37:30):

Yes. Yes. I mean, that was true in my life. I know it's been true in your life. It's like, wow, look at what opens up for us when we free up space in our life.

 

Heather Moulder (37:40):

Correct.

 

Dina Cataldo (37:41):

The next part of this, I wanted to ask you around putting yourself worth first. Right. Noticing, you know, as a result of the boundaries, putting yourself first and all of the, all of the things that you were doing, your work product improved and you still kept up like a multimillion dollar book of business, right? Like you were still taking care of yourself, you were still able to hold a book of business that that was Yes. Yeah. Right. So there's a lot of people listening right now who are like, in big law, right. In big law. A lot of people listening right now are probably thinking like, what, what do you mean? And so what did you do to take care of yourself? Put yourself first in the context of being able to, and I know you just talked a little bit about this in terms of knowing who you want to work with right. And, and to be able to have those aligned values with your clients. But what else did you do to put yourself first that put you in the position to grow your practice in big law while taking care of yourself?

 

Heather Moulder (38:48):

So it's probably gonna surprise you. 'cause It, it's not really a self-care answer, but it is.

 

Dina Cataldo (38:53):

Oh, that's not what I Yeah, I know what you mean.

 

Heather Moulder (38:55):

So, okay, <laugh>. So it, it's a couple of things. So number one, I was really, really good about knowing exactly who to say yes and who to say no to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and sticking to it no matter what. And when I built my practice, so it's a couple things. It's, we talked about the values, the values come into play also in how you go about building your practice. And there are other things that come into play. So your strengths, everybody has strengths. Right. And our strengths show up in the work that we do. Our strengths show up in the, the things that we do. I have discovered over time that strengths are kind of a self-care act. Like being able to lean into your strengths. Yeah. They're what energize you to do the things you do. Yeah. And your strengths show up in your personal life, in the hobbies that you choose and also in your work.

 

Heather Moulder (39:46):

So what I did was I really honed in on what I loved the most about the work that I did. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> for the clients I loved the most built, I, I really went after the clients. I loved the most. My clients were not clients, they were friends. Hmm. They were part of my client, my client development. So the people that I've targeted, because family's a top value. They all had families, family was all very important to them. I was in the finance industry as a woman. My clients were primarily men. FYI. Mm. But they all had families, kids they would love to talk about. And they loved football. I'm a football fan, <laugh> nice. A big football fan. So we had a lot of commonalities. We would talk a lot. I I used my husband as a business developer too. So we would have families over, we would cook dinner for with one another.

 

Heather Moulder (40:36):

We would, that to me was an act of self care because I was honing in on things that were important to me with people who were important to me. And again, connection, big value of mine, connecting with them on a deeper level. Yeah. So the, the self-care piece was there. I never felt like business development for me was this thing I had to do that was no fun. That was horrible. Like networking to me was fun because I was networking with the right people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that was one big piece of it. And then the other one is leaning into your strengths. As I said earlier, like, I love to solve complex problems. I loved structuring stuff. I loved, you know, getting on conversations and like, whoa, wait, all this is going on. Okay, let's, let's, let's break it down. I love to break everything down.

 

Heather Moulder (41:23):

Right? And so I honed in on those more and more. I utilized storytelling to highlight those things with people as I was networking in my marketing efforts when I gave, you know, spoke things like that. So that attracted more of the right people to me and kind of self-selected the wrong people out who didn't care about my approach, my style, my way of doing. And so I really built this cohesive kind of business around me that was very supportive that yes, sometimes I had to work a lot because that's life as a lawyer, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But when I did it, I was doing it with people I cared about, who cared about me, who if I called them and said, look, I am not feeling it tonight. Things are just like, it's too much. I need a break and I'll be back to you tomorrow. They'd say, yeah, Heather, well, we'll totally can wait. We had that kind of relationship, right? So it's, again, when you build holistically this right kind of a business, and not everybody, most of my clients don't do business development the same way we hone in on their strengths, right? We hone in on their values and we figured out how to make it work for them Right.

 

Heather Moulder (42:26):

In the life they want. It's a lot easier. And it, it, it integrates the two more fully the two sides of your life in a way that feels manageable, doable, isn't so stressful because you truly enjoy it and you truly love the people you're working with on a daily basis.

 

Dina Cataldo (42:44):

Yeah. And I, I wanna really highlight this because, you know, some of the work I do is helping lawyers find out, okay, like, this is the person I like, like thinking about their, their best fit client. Yeah. And I, I think like so many lawyers, and there might be some listening right now think, but then if I only focus on them, I'm missing out on all of this other stuff. So tell me what your thoughts are about that. Especially when it comes to, you know, chasing the hot thing and then being imbalanced in their current practice.

 

Heather Moulder (43:19):

I mean, at the end of the day, you gotta decide what is it I really want? Yeah. What is it, what is the life I really want? How do I wanna integrate the two and then build the practice around that? Which means necessarily letting go of things. But what I've found is there's this fear at the outset of, but, but does that mean usually what I find in my clients, they are not fearful of missing out on those things. They're fearful that going at it in this like niched specialized way means they can't make a living at it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like, somehow there's gonna be so few people in that category for them, but it's not gonna be enough. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So couple things. You gotta figure out what enough is.

 

Dina Cataldo (44:03):

Yes.

 

Heather Moulder (44:04):

And a lot of us don't define that very clearly for ourselves. We define it based on what others say is enough. So you gotta get, you gotta do the work yourself. What is enough? What makes me feel financially stable? What is, you know, what is that goal? And then you need to just go out and do it. And what they find is, and I've never had this, it, it just doesn't happen. There are enough people out there to fulfill your needs. Yeah. And the more you show up as the person you truly are and how you wanna be and the, you know, with the right energy and the right style and the right approach, and you showcase, this is how I do things. The right people are gonna self-select to you. Because here's the thing, the vast majority of lawyers out there are marketing and selling and networking the way most lawyers have always done it. Yeah. It's more needy. It's pushy, it's awkward. You are gonna stand out in a really unique way and you're mo you're especially gonna stand out to the people who are good fits for you. And it's like a magnet. Yes. Like they'll come to you, they will be like, oh my gosh, you're like speaking my language. Yes. You're my person and you'll have more than enough work.

 

Dina Cataldo (45:13):

<Laugh>. Yes. And it's, it's interesting, like when I talk to, to lawyers, the ones who are the happiest Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> are the ones who are just like these, they're nice people. Like those are the people I, I know you like nice people too. I like nice people who, you know, they wanna do, like, they're ambitious and they, they wanna create a life they live, but they're just kind of stuck right now. But the the ones that come to me who ha are the happiest are the ones that are, are just themselves. And they have people coming up to them in their cities or their towns. 'cause They work with them and they, you know, they're, they talk to them because they're their friends. They're not just the clients. Right. They're not just like this anonymous client that, you know, they feel disconnected from or that they've had to chase.

 

Dina Cataldo (46:03):

Right. Like, they had to convince this person to be their client. It's like, no. Like the people when you're yourself, when you're your, you're at your best is when you're at yourself, people are going to be drawn to you. Yes. And there's so much opportunity out there for like, we're both coaches Right. And we're, we're now, we've both been on each other's podcasts. It's like, yeah, there's enough lawyers in this world who need help <laugh>. Oh yeah. You know, like, we're not in competition. No. Because some people are gonna be very drawn to you. Some people are gonna be very drawn to me or somebody else. Like it's, it's a matter of just being yourself. Yep. And then people will come to you.

 

Heather Moulder (46:45):

And I like, you know, something that we, lawyers focus and high achievers in general like this. Yeah. And pretty much every lawyer I've ever met is a high achiever. We focus so much on output. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Output. Meaning the goal, the money, the number of clients, the whatever that, that what others think of us. We don't focus enough on input. And this shift that we're talking about is really what I like to say. Input over output. Hmm. The output comes. Yeah. If the right input goes in. So again, focus on your values. Leverage your strengths. Learn to let go of your, the things you're weak at or that you don't enjoy doing or that you don't need to be doing anymore. Delegate more terrible lawyers are terrible at

 

Dina Cataldo (47:30):

Delegating <laugh>. Oh my gosh. Yes. I, I think as this comes out I just put an episode out about delegating. 'cause I was like, this needs to happen <laugh>. But

 

Heather Moulder (47:38):

This whole process helps with that because it gives you permission to hone in and lean into those things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that you are your lane and let go of all that other stuff. Which is part of when you said at the very beginning, they're doing all the things. Yeah. That's the problem. Yes. They're doing all the things you don't need to be doing all the things you shouldn't be doing all the things. Stay in your lane. Yeah. Do your things.

 

Dina Cataldo (48:02):

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, when you were talking about that, so much of that, and I don't know how you talk about this with your clients, but I talk about my, with my clients about this in terms of mindset. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And sometimes mindset can be kind of an amorphous idea. You know, this idea that, oh well and it does sound kind of woo when you talk about it. But I didn't start there. I started with it being very math. Like it was very much like, oh my input is how I'm thinking about a problem. My output is my result and what I'm getting. So if I'm thinking about a problem, that's the input, whatever I'm thinking about it. And that thought can either be it's not working, I can make this work. I see signs of it working. It is working. Right. There's so many much different input we could be placing in our brain.

 

Dina Cataldo (48:54):

We may not even recognize that it's an optional thought that we can actually change it. That's what coaching's about. You're not expected to just know this. Like this is, this takes time and practice. Yeah. But whatever you are thinking about your current situation is going to determine what your output is. So if you think it's impossible to build a book of business that you love, or if you think it's impossible to create time to build a book of business that you love, then the output will always be exactly what you think the output is gonna be.

 

Heather Moulder (49:28):

<Laugh> you will not build the book of business because you won't put any or hardly any input in. Yeah. Yeah. I like to tell my like, look, there's no guarantee. Right. We what The other problem with output is we hyper focus in on a bunch of stuff we can't control. Yeah.

 

Heather Moulder (49:46):

Because there are other people at play, there are other things, unexpected events come up. Right. You can't control those things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But what I can tell people is any lawyer can build a book of business. I cannot promise you how quickly you will get to the result you want. But if you have a reasonable expectation, you know, 10 million in two years is probably not reasonable. However, you can get to that first million. Anybody can if they really want to, if they are consistent and they do the right things. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And it all starts with the right mindset to motivate you and be willing to try and explore and get vulnerable and make mistakes and be okay with it. And then learning from it and then consistency over time. Yeah. You will get there eventually. So I can't ever guarantee the exact results in the exact timing, but I can tell you it works like it, it is not rocket science, but it, so when I say focus on input, focus on what you can control.

 

Heather Moulder (50:44):

Yeah. Focus on the mindset. Have the consultant or coach that can help you have a good plan in place. Focus on your strengths. Align to your values. I will tell you, it's kinda like with my son Noah, who's in ninth grade, who is now learning that he actually has to read things. He can't just like, listen amorphously and like I thought that's how he learns is listening mostly. And it gets him, it's always gotten him good grades, but now that he's in a higher level, it's, he needs to do more. Yeah. And he's starting to learn that even though he puts more input in, it doesn't guarantee the perfect result, but it sure as heck is way better than it would've been. Right. <laugh>. Right, right.

 

Dina Cataldo (51:22):

Yeah. I think that, it's kind of funny that you say that 'cause it made me think of, you know, people who, like I was a big podcast listener and I, I still am to a certain extent, but when I first started my business, I knew I needed to change my mindset after I learned like, okay, here are all the things I could do. I recognized, oh, it's not just about the doing. 'cause I could do from a place of feeling anxious and struggling and pushing. Yeah. Or I could implement the mindset. And then when I started seeing just a little bit of a tweak here and there, I saw, whoa, wait a minute, I'm actually taking action and I feel good. I don't feel like I'm pushing myself. And so that mindset changed how I, how I thought generally about work and, and success and growing a business.

 

Dina Cataldo (52:12):

And I think that what you're saying here that, that spoke to me is, is like, yeah, we could listen to the podcast all day long, you know, we, and, and we're getting better results than we would without them. But are you noticing that you're still pushing in areas like, or Right. You know, those are, those are some interesting things that I noticed that I needed to just start taking action. Yep. Some of that was, you know, with a coach and like getting that help with the mindset. Some of that was, you know, just getting data from me, not getting the result I wanted and saying, oh, wait a minute, what was I thinking that created that result? What was all my input? What did I, what did I do? What was I thinking? How was I feeling? Yes. Yes. And that can show me why I got the result, and then not to beat myself up about it and then go back and then re rejigger it, re-work it. Right. You gotta learn. And, and I like to call it like getting your hands dirty. It's like, you gotta go in, you gotta get your hands dirty, you gotta get messy, you gotta make mistakes. Like, what, what would you tell your

 

Heather Moulder (53:14):

Clients? Well, what comes to mind when you say all these things is networking and asking for the, the business. Yeah. Is like a big area. <Laugh>, we have all these thoughts and beliefs, right. That hold us back from even asking. And so a perfect example of this is, if you're going in and you're in a situation where there's an opening, you're talking to somebody, you've taken 'em to lunch, you're like, my God, they're still not hiring me. But have you ever actually made the ask, well, no, because that seems awkward and I shouldn't have to sell as a lawyer, and oh my God, what if they say no? And all these things going on in my mind, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So you don't, and you lose out because they mention, well, I have this new deal coming up, and they're probably thinking, Hey, maybe they'd be good for it, but then if you don't say anything, they're probably thinking, oh, they're not interested.

 

Heather Moulder (53:59):

Or maybe they don't have time for it. Right now, you don't know that. Right? So you've gotta make the ask. Now also, if you do make the ask and you're thinking, oh my God, selling is pushy and awkward and I feel so needy and I really need this business right now though. And how do you think you're gonna make the ask versus, you know what? I just wanna kind of serve them and see if this would be a fit. Yeah. There's, once you change your mentality around what selling is for you comes across very differently.

 

Dina Cataldo (54:26):

Oh yeah. It's

 

Heather Moulder (54:27):

A very different place. And so that's a perfect example of input over output. The output comes so much better, your output, and then their response, even if they say no, is going to be better because you've planted a seed for the future. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But I guarantee that if you ask in that needy, pushy way, or in a really awkward, weird way, it's not planting a good seed. No. Right. So

 

Dina Cataldo (54:51):

Yeah, I mean, there really is a difference in like how you think about these kinds of approaches in your Yes. Business. Like, everything that you do in your business, in your practice is going to be regulated by what's going on in your brain. What are you thinking about when you make the ask, when you, you know, do the work, whatever it is. And boy, people can tell when you're pushing or you, you feel needy and graspy for sure.

 

Heather Moulder (55:20):

And it's funny because a lot of people who hire me, they all know they're gonna get the tactical stuff, right? The practical stuff of let's figure out the right strategies and the tactics and how we're, what is our marketing gonna be, and are we gonna speak, are we gonna write, are we, what are the things, right? Yeah, sure. But the bulk of the work is actually where you probably working with your clients, even if they're not on business development. It's in the mindset. It's in the, how do I actually go about this? How do I deal with this situation? How do I rethink this so that I can approach it in a way that feels good to me and also will get a better result?

 

Dina Cataldo (55:52):

Yes. Ah, this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you for being here. Yes. Thank, thank you. Can you share with everybody where is the best place to find you? Obviously they gotta go listen to your podcast, tell us all the things. <Laugh>, I'll link to it in the show notes.

 

Heather Moulder (56:08):

So from a business perspective my coaching website is course correction coaching.com, and my podcast is life in law podcast.com. I am also on LinkedIn pretty much every day, at least weekday. So you can find me at Heather Mulder, and it's M-O-U-L-D-E-R.

 

Dina Cataldo (56:27):

Excellent. All right. Thank you again. This has been, I know this has been a fabulous episode for everybody listening because you, you gave so much info. I would actually highly suggest going back and listening to this episode and pull out the questions that Heather and I posed, because yeah, those questions are gonna give you so much awareness and data for you to move forward.

 

Heather Moulder (56:51):

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. This was fun.

 

Dina Cataldo (56:53):

Heather really showed up with so much value in this episode, wasn't it fabulous? She really brought it, and I'm really appreciative of that. I'm gonna link to everything that she mentioned in the show notes, and if you are ready to make the changes that we started talking about here today in this episode, I want to encourage you to book a strategy session with me. As you heard today, telling someone out loud that your dreaming has a profound effect on you and how you show up in this world together, let's talk about what you're dreaming about and make it a reality. You can book a strategy session with me at dina cataldo.com/strategy session today. Alright, my friend, thank you so much for joining me. I will talk to you next time.

 

Speaker 3 (57:38):

Bye.