Hi, how are you doing today? I hope you are finding your groove. Whatever is going on in your life right now. I gotta tell ya, I am a little Corona virus out right now. It's just a little bit too much everywhere. I was talking to my neighbor this afternoon and he is a firefighter and he and his wife, they have a really nice family and he still going out on calls right now. Of course he says that, you know, the nine one one calls are down, but when he does go out he's in full protective gear and taking care of things and you know, he's concerned for himself and his family and he's taking all the bird cautions he needs to take. But we were just talking about how everything is kind of upside down right now for a lot of people. So wherever you are, I hope you are doing all right.

And I was thinking after our conversation just how fortunate we are to have people like him, people who were at our grocery stores, people who have to be out in the world right now who are taking care of business, who are taking care of themselves so that they can take care of other people, the people who we need so that everyone else who sheltered in place or quarantined can still function. So I want to give a big shout out to them and I also want to give a big shout out to their family members and if you are a family member of one of the people who are out there on the front lines of this thing, I want to say thank you because you're taking a mental toll too. You are just as in this as they are. So I want to say thank you.

And today I wanted to play a replay of one of my most popular episodes and I think it's so popular because the heart this woman has, and I'm just going to let the episode speak for itself. It is one that was originally under the soul roadmap podcast titles. So if you hear me talking about soul roadmap, that is what it is. It has evolved into be a better lawyer podcast because you know lawyers, we have souls too. And I talk about exactly who Bernay Brown is and why her lessons are so important and even more important in times like these. So I hope you listened to it. I hope you take something from it. I also want you to know that if you're listening to this on April 2nd which is when this will be coming out, my friend Selena Soo has a free master class that is going to be up today, is the last day.

If you go to Dina cataldo.com forward slash Selena, S. E. L. E. N. A, you can join her free masterclass. I've been promoting the impacting millions program, which is a fabulous program to promote your business, to help more people, to shine a spotlight on what you do and who you are and who you help. And if you are at all interested in helping more people and shining a brighter light on the service that you provide, I highly recommend you go to this free master class. Go to Dina cataldo.com forward slash Selena I also have placed in my bonuses up for impacting millions on my website. If you go to Dina cataldo.com forward slash impacting millions, that's Dina cataldo.com forward slash impacting millions. You will find my sales page with all my lovely bonuses that I have added in to make your impacting millions experience even that much more special because impacting millions is amazing and I can't say enough good things about it.

If you're on my email list, you know what I'm talking about and yeah, so go to her masterclass, checkout impacting millions. I know that if that is what you're interested in, it will be a great fit for you and all right. Without further ado, let's jump into the podcast. Good morning. Thank you so much for being here today and it may not be morning when you're listening to this, but that's when I'm recording it with my little dog, Frankie by my side and I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today. I know you have a lot of options on your podcast player and I appreciate that you're listening to me here on soul roadmap today. It means a lot to me. If you have not joined me on Instagram already, follow me at Dina dot Cataldo where I share Insta stories and mini blogs in my posts.

Sometimes I'll put in some pictures of Frankie and I will talk a little bit about some motivational stuff I'm reading or what I'm going through right now to relate it back to whatever you're going through right now. So if you go there, that has been my go to place lately. I'll link to that in my show notes along with some other things I'm mentioning today in the [email protected] forward slash 28 so here's the deal with today's podcast. It's inspired by an interaction I had with one of my friends and I discovered recently that not everyone knows about Bernay Brown and her work. I was kind of shocked considering everyone I talk to about her seems to know who she is. And my friend asked who she was and I said she studies shame and vulnerability and distills her findings into stories and practical applications in her books.

It sounds like what a lawyer would say. Right? And I felt like that was a pretty good description, but there's really a lot more to her than that. And there's a reason why she and her books are so loved by people like you know, Oprah. And before I tell you more about her, because I can't wait to talk to you about her. And even if you do know about her, I'm going to go into some of the topics that she discusses in her books. And they may be things that you haven't heard before or maybe you've heard them before, but you haven't really applied them to your own life. And this might give you an opportunity to start thinking more about what she talks about and how you can apply it to your own life to make it better. So let me share with you something that's impacted me before I get to her.

I want to tell you about mantras now you can call them anything you want to. You can call them affirmations, reminders, setting an intention if that makes a difference to you. All those words mean the same thing to me. But I think mantra sounds cooler and I've created a 45 minute audio talking more about how I use mantras and which mantras I suggest and I've created a PDF of 99 mantras. That's a quick downloadable PDF that you can get free in the show [email protected] forward slash 28 the difference between how I handle my feelings now versus how I handled my emotions 10 years ago is huge. Heck, even like a few years ago, it's huge. And one of the tools I've used to create more ease in my own life are mantras. So in the PDF I've written down 99 of my favorite mantras, but in the audio I've included much more than that.

I go through the list, but I also talk about what each of them mean to me and how I use them in my day to day life to help create more ease. Our lives can be intense and each of us needs tools to ground us and help us manage our emotions. Mantras have been one of the most effective tools I've used. I tell you more about how I use them in the audio. So if you want more ease in your life and heck who wouldn't? You can get these mantras including the 45 minute audio [email protected] forward slash 28 and when this podcast is playing, it's Thanksgiving. So you are going to want to listen to this audio while you're cooking Thanksgiving dinner. Let me tell you, if you've got a lot of family over, this is what you want to do. All right, let's go back to Brenae because I'm going to call her Bernay from here on out because she feels like that gal that you'd be friends with if you actually met.

So why is she so loved? Well, I think it's because she's incredibly honest about her personal failings and discoveries while doing her research, she's been called to speak in front of large groups of people, including groups of people not known for sharing their feelings like 350 SWAT team officers, parole officers, and prison guards because she's willing to be vulnerable in her own struggles with what she's learned about shame and vulnerability. In her research, she makes it clear that doing the work is a lifetime practice. It's not easy. It's courageous work. It's the work we don't want to do because it feels uncomfortable, but once we do it, we find the keys to better relationships with other people and ourselves. Bernay's first Ted talk is one of the top five Ted talks of all time and I'll link to it in the show notes there. She talks about the power of vulnerability to a relatively small group of university of Houston students and then it went viral and has been seen over 37 million times.

Her entire academic career was based in social work and she loves organizing so she's organized all the touchy feely emotions to understand them better because she admits she is not good with the touchy feely emotions and she was born and raised Texan and then she's written several books that are New York times bestsellers, like the gifts of imperfection, daring greatly rising, strong, braving the wilderness, and she's got a new book out called dare to lead. I've linked to all of them in the show notes too. There are eight concepts I want to highlight in today's episode that I hope will help bring awareness to your everyday understanding of these topics and how they show up in our lives daily. I understand from my own experience that wrestling with some of these topics is uncomfortable and I want you to know that I work through these every single day.

She doesn't talk about the easy stuff. Doing the hard stuff is what brings the biggest payoff in life and that's why I'm doing this podcast is to bring some of these hard topics to light and to just start a discussion. The first concept, this one's going to be the easiest one because Renee has done this for us. We have to break down big concepts into small pieces. That way we have the words to use to address those things with ourselves and with others. We have to have that intelligent emotional vocabulary. It actually makes it easier to talk about these hard topics. It helps us pinpoint why we're feeling what we're feeling. That's why words are so important. If you've been following along with the podcast, you'll know that feelings are created by our thoughts about the circumstances that we have. Other words for circumstances is evidence or objective facts.

Once we pinpoint what our thought is about a circumstance, then we have the power to change our thoughts. When we change our thoughts, we can change our feelings. When we change our feelings, we can change our responses and that impacts the outcome. We can create trust, vulnerability, shame are all big topics that we don't usually consciously bring up and nuanced ways. The second big concept I want to talk about is how she defines trust. She breaks down trust into the acronym. Braving. Braving is something that we do with ourselves as well as others. Here's the kicker. We can't ask people to give us something we don't believe we're worthy of receiving. We can't ask people to trust us when we don't even trust ourselves, so let's see how she breaks it down. So B is for boundaries. If you're clear about your boundaries, say no honestly to something and you're respectful of my boundaries, then I can trust you.

How often have you recognized that you weren't clear about your own boundaries? How can you expect someone, how can we expect anyone to trust us when we can't clearly lay out our boundaries? Have you ever been resentful of someone for asking too much from you but you stuffed it down cause I've done that. I'm raising my hand right now. That was because we didn't set clear boundaries. We said yes when we really meant no, and when we do that, we're hurting ourselves. Ours for reliability, you're reliable. You say what you're going to do consistently. Accountability. I can only trust you if when you make a mistake, you're willing to own it, apologize and make amends and vice versa. You'll accept me and allow me to make mistakes and let me own it, apologize for it and make amends for it. I love this one. This one's just perfect.

I mean, how many times have you not wanted to even enter a conversation with someone because you don't feel that you'll be able to apologize for anything that you say and we all make mistakes. That is natural. I'm going to talk a little bit more about that when we get to the next segment. V is for vault. What I share with you, you will hold in confidence and vice versa. This trust is violated when a good friend or a coworker comes up to us and tells us something about someone else that wasn't theirs to share, then our trust for that person diminishes, right? I have to be able to see you acknowledge confidentiality with others in order to establish trust. Another thing that we do to create this instant soup of connection is, and she calls it hot wiring connection, is gossip, so we can't build true connection with gossip.

She calls it counterfeit trust. When we're going in and we're gossiping with someone in the office and we're trying to create a connection, but that is not a real connection and that actually diminishes trust because we're not able to genuinely share with them and the person that we're gossiping with, they're not going to genuinely want to share with us. I is for integrity. The concept is this. I can't trust you unless you act from a place of integrity and encourage me to do the same. It's choosing courage over comfort. What's right over what's fun, fast or easy. It's practicing your values, not just professing your values and that was a direct quote from Bernay Brown and his four non-judgment. I can fall apart, ask for help, be in struggle without being judged by you and you can do all those things and I won't judge you.

I like that one too. G is for generosity. Our relationship is only trusting if you can assume the most generous thing about my words, intentions and behaviors, and then check in with me rather than attack. So if I screw up, you'll make a generous assumption. Practicing generosity in this way. It means saying to a friend, yesterday was the one year anniversary of my mom's death and it was really tough for me. I talked to you about this last month and I was really hoping you'd check in with me yesterday. I know you care. I just wanted you to know that I was thinking about that. Instead of saying something like that, something that really creates a connection that allows us to be vulnerable with our friends. What we're really doing if we're not doing that, is we're holding onto that, right? Like we're pushing it down and we're waiting for that perfect moment to say something like, well, you forgot to call, and you using that against them and when we use that moment, that opportunity to be vulnerable and if we squander that and instead we use it to attack, we are hurting our friendship.

The interesting thing about trust is that we want people to trust us, but it's a catch 22 we have to give trust before we can get trust and trusting others takes vulnerability and being able to be ourselves takes vulnerability. Now this is not easy work, right? It promises a big reward though in connection and that's what her work is all about. Her work is about connecting people and that means creating these connections at home, in politics and at work, and it's a continuing practice. She also knows that it's the little things that build trust. Knowing the names of your friends, family members, attending funerals, being there when they need you. Trust is built in the smallest of moments. It means we have to pay attention and be in the moment, which we have a lot of difficulty doing. She talks about a trust researcher named John Gottman, who says that skipping an opportunity to build trust and connection is a betrayal.

I loved this. It just made so much sense to me. And he describes a moment when he wanted to get into bed and read his mystery novel because he was getting to that end point when he was going to find out who the killer was and he just couldn't do anything but race to bed. But his wife was in the bathroom and he saw that she had a pained look on her face and the first thought that came to his mind was, okay, just ignore it. Let me just get to bed and read this novel. But then he recognized that he needed to stop. These are when those small moments of trust are built. And so he stopped and went into the bathroom, took the brush from his wife who was brushing her hair and asked her what was wrong. How many times do we skip opportunities to build connection by rushing through our day?

This might be something that you want to take notice of. I know I work on taking notice of this when I become self-involved or want to do what I want to do, rather than take those moments to build connection with those around us. All right? Number three, big takeaway. There are three major ways that we create the illusion of control and defend against vulnerability. Those things are foreboding, joy, perfectionism, and numbing. So those are the three ways that she terms them for boating joy. All right, so what is that? We are happy and then we undercut that happiness with thoughts of negativity. So for instance, you're tucking your kids into bed and your heart is overflowing and then your mind rushes to something that is negative, like something bad that could happen to them that is undercutting the joy that you're feeling in that moment.

And what's driving us in that moment is scarcity. The antidote to that thought process is to change it up and start to have gratitude. Gratitude, I find is like the big antidote to anything negative going on in my brain. So if I notice my brain is going to something negative, I'm very good. I think now I don't, I was not always like this. I feel like I'm very good at now directly moving my attention to gratitude. That has not always been the case. It is taken me years to get there, but I feel like that is a habit now and you can make it a habit too if you don't have that habit already. The second topic that she breaks down is perfectionism. Oh my gosh. If you're listening to this, my bet is you're probably going to get a little bit of all three of these in your life.

You'll probably see it every so often. Perfectionism is the big one for me. I'm betting there's a lot of you who are perfectionist too. So what is perfectionism? Well, we say we'll do something, but we're only going to do it when it's perfect, which prevents us from putting something we've made into the world. Perfectionism is, and this is Bernay talking at its core about trying to earn approval. I am what I accomplish. Yeah, I felt that one, the antidote she says is self-compassion. For me personally, it's action. All right, but self compaction, that is a big one. Let me give you an example. So she's saying, I am what I accomplish and I have felt that many times over. It's that checkbox mentality. And if I don't accomplish something the way that I set out to accomplish it, then I am bad. I'm not living up to my potential.

Now, there's another way to do that, which is creating something and then not putting it out into the world because it's not perfect. So I know that when I do these podcasts, they're never going to be quote unquote perfect. There's going to be so there's going to be Oz. There's going to be times when I think, wow, I sound really boring right there. There's going to be imperfections. I could stay up all night and just redo and redo and redo these podcasts, or I could put it out in the world. Being a perfectionist oftentimes means that we are scared to put something out into the world and we are preventing ourselves from doing something big because we're paying attention to something small. It's an excuse. It's also a procrastination measure, right? So if you've listened to this podcast, I did an episode on procrastination.

I'll link to that in the show notes. And in that episode, perfectionism is one of those ways that we procrastinate. It really comes down to fear. She says something in braving the wilderness that I saw that is reflected in her words here. So I'll never write enough books or earn enough degrees to meet the standard. I set up for smart, the new Yorker, smart, the Ivy league, smart the anywhere. But where I'm from, smart. No credentials or letters behind my name can change the fact that I'm a fifth generation Texan with imperfect grammar. The tendency to cuss too much when I'm tired or fired up, and an ongoing struggle to police my long vowels. And colloquialisms. I mean, how many times have we looked at what we've done and tried to cover up something that maybe we don't feel so great about? That to me is also a form of perfectionism.

I also see perfectionism show up in my life, and I try not to do this anymore, but I've done it in the past, which is using intelligence as a shield to have power over someone that blocks vulnerability and connection and maybe even trying to move shame from our own shortcomings onto someone else that we can have power over that use of whatever it is that we've gained over the years in order to perfect ourselves can also be used as this shield. So if you have ever recognized yourself doing that, then you will know what I mean. If you don't know what I mean, pay attention. See how often you might use words that distinguish yourself as part of a profession or part of a super intelligent group of people attempting to put somebody in their place so to speak. The third shield that she talks about using to control and defend against vulnerability is numbing.

I call it buffering. I got that term from Brooke Castillo, but it's really the same thing. Numbing the feelings with food substances, unhealthy behaviors like over using phones, like using it for candy, crush, email, social media, you name it. Right. And you know I did a whole podcast on this on buffering and I'll link to that in the show notes. But in the gifts of imperfection she wrote, I wasn't raised with the skills and emotional practice needed to lean into discomfort. So over time I basically became a take the edge off alcoholic, but they don't have meetings for that. She talks about how she couldn't even get into an AA meeting because they felt like that wasn't for her. I mean these are real things that are happening in our lives, but it seems like it almost falls into this gray area where nobody really has a place for it.

Nobody has room to talk about it. So she talks about the antidote to this is feeling your feelings, staying mindful of these numbing behaviors and learning to lean into the discomfort of our feelings. Okay. So there is another major way that we use to create that illusion of control and defend against vulnerability. It's not one of the major ways, but I think it's one that lawyers will be really familiar with. And she actually specifically talks about lawyers. I also believe any high achievers, so if you're a doctor, you know whatever it is you're doing. An engineer, she calls it a Viking or victim mentality. She says that in her experience, those who use this shield to vulnerability have responses to the idea that vulnerability might have value ranged from dismissive and defensive to hostile sounds like lawyers, right? Either you're a victim in life, a sacker who's always being taken advantage of, or you're in control and dominate and you never show vulnerability.

The American bar association journal article that she cites reports that experts on lawyer depression and substance abuse attributed the higher suicide rate to lawyers, perfectionism, shocker and on their need to be aggressive and emotionally detached. This trickles down to our home life, right? So when we teach our children that vulnerability is dangerous and should be pushed away, we lead them directly into danger. And disconnection, fear and scarcity are driving this armor that we're putting up to prevent us from being vulnerable to attack or criticism. The fourth thing that I want to talk about is opting out of speaking out because we may get criticized. To me that is too Bernay is the definition of privilege. That means, right? Like I don't have to speak out because I don't have fill in the blank problem. So her solution to the nerves she has when she becomes vulnerable on a Facebook live is to start with something like, I know this is going to be imperfect, but I'm not going to let my imperfection move me away from the conversation because it's too important.

Oh my gosh, I loved this area. And she talks even more in depth about this and braving the wilderness. She has this whole discussion about what we're doing right now in politics and in our neighborhoods. She knows that no matter what she says, and a lot of times we'll do these Facebook lives that are addressing some major concern, like a school shooting things that are going on in Houston. I mean, she will create these really great Facebook lives in which she's sharing from her heart. She knows that no matter what she says, people are going to criticize her. It doesn't matter whether or not they are for her or against her side or whatever it is because she will never say everything perfectly. She will never be able to say just those words that you wanted her to say and that exact way it doesn't matter.

I loved her message to them, her messages, if you're one of the people who criticize instead of having a conversation, shut up because it's not useful. What is useful? Glad you asked one. If you want to enter a conversation and express why you disagree, that opens up the space for growth too. She doesn't respond to anyone who's anonymous because they're not in the arena. They're not being brave. I also thought about this in terms of dating sites, so if you're not putting your picture out there, then you're not in the arena and you're not opening yourself up to criticism or vulnerability. Three, there's a difference between shaming someone versus having a conversation to create growth. Shame drives rage, anger, rationalization and blame. It doesn't drive healing. Shaming someone hurts them and yourself. So I've had an experience like this online where I didn't say something perfectly and in fact that's exactly what a couple people tried to do is shame me.

Rather than have a conversation to further growth, there was no opportunity to have a conversation because they shut it down using words that weren't expressing. You know, why they disagree or opening up any space rather instead they just criticized and use some very personal terms to do so. So one of the conversations that I wanted to bring up that she has is in braving the wilderness and it's this discussion about how we have been sorting ourselves into different groups and she uses that term from another researcher, but I want to use it because it's really useful here. She talks about how people seek social settings they prefer and as they choose the group that makes them feel the most comfortable, the nation grows more politically segregated. And the benefit that ought to come with having a variety of opinions is lost to the righteousness that is the special entitlement of homogenous groups.

And that was a quote from bill Bishop who she talks about and he wrote a book called the big sort. I'll link to that in the show notes too, but he writes, as a result of the sorting, we now live in a giant feedback loop hearing our own thoughts about what's right and wrong, bounced back to us by the television shows. We watch the newspapers and books, we read, the blogs, we visit online, the sermons we hear and the neighborhoods we live in. And this leads us to make assumptions and it fuels disconnection. Right now what we're doing is, and this is, these are Bearnaise words, most of us are either making the choice to protect ourselves from conflict, discomfort and vulnerability by staying quiet because you know, we don't want to be picked on. We don't want to be vulnerable. We don't want people to say crap about us or picking sides and in the process, slowly and paradoxically adopting the behavior of the people we're fighting.

Now, if you have not noticed this happening in your circles, then you're not paying attention because each one of us has seen this happening and we see it every single day. Social media, we see it in the news, we see it everywhere. This is something that is going to kill our society if we're not paying attention to it. And for a really great discussion on this, I highly suggest braving the wilderness. It gave me words to articulate what's happening, and that's really one of the reasons I love Bernay Brown so much is because she is creating the vocabulary for us to have these conversations. All right. The fifth big takeaway I have from Bernay's work is that the people who have a strong sense of love and belonging have a belief that they are deserving of love and belonging. She calls these people wholehearted people. What they had in common was a sense of courage and she talks about how the word courage is from the Latin word cor and she said it originally meant to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart.

They have the courage to be imperfect. These people who had this strong sense of love and belonging, they had the courage to have compassion, to be kind to themselves. They had connection as a result of authenticity. They were willing to let go of who they thought they should be in order to be who they really were. They also had in common that they fully embraced vulnerability, completely releasing control. Isn't that funny? We think that we can use control to shape our world and have the result be what we want it to be, but the real thing that we're doing is shutting down our vulnerability. When we're using these tools to control our world around us, we're ignoring those opportunities to create connection. This is a fascinating conversation to me. The sixth takeaway is that it takes less energy to give people the benefit of the doubt, even though it seems harder and she doesn't quite describe it like this, but this is how I've experienced what she's taught and she teaches that people are doing the best they can.

So her example is when she is in a hotel room sharing it with another person, that person gets oily food on her hands and then instead of grabbing a napkin or getting up to wash her hands, she wipes them on the couch and she is in palsy. She can't believe that this person would do something so rude and she has a hissy fit in her mind. She talks it through with her therapist. She's really open about what she talks about with her therapists and she says, I came to the conclusion that it's much easier to just give people the benefit of the doubt. It makes me feel better. Giving the most generous interpretation of somebody's behavior really does feel better than complaining in your head. She may not have known better. She may not have been thinking. There's so many different ways to look at people's behavior.

I noticed myself using this tool. All the, when I see somebody who is being rude in a grocery store, I think to myself, okay, maybe they weren't taught to be polite. Maybe they're having a bad day and rather than expending energy on thinking the worst of someone, I just try. I try so hard to go to that most generous interpretation. It does not always work. It is really hard. That's why this is a practice. This is not the easy stuff. But when I am regularly giving people the benefit of the doubt, I feel so much more relaxed. It really does help. And the thing is, is that we can't give this compassion unless we're compassionate with ourselves. We have to have that compassion with ourselves to make mistakes, cause we're gonna make mistakes and it will make life so much easier. The seventh takeaway is that women are hard on ourselves, but we're just as hard on men.

The expectations that we've been instilled with by society are hurting our relationships with men. Now. We want them to be vulnerable, yet strong. We put them on a white horse. She said that when she started studying men after being confronted by a man after a book signing about not addressing men in her work, she saw that generally shame manifested in men by them either shutting down or getting pissed off, and it's instilled in men at a young age when they're being yelled at by a coach, a father, mother or teacher. That being a man in our culture means I'm not allowed to be afraid, I'm not allowed to show fear. I'm not allowed to be vulnerable, and shame is being afraid, showing fear or being vulnerable. So when we're talking to men, it's important to recognize that we as women can often miss opportunities for connection with our partners.

When we shut down their ability to be open with us, we have to recognize that each of us has insecurities and are imperfect and that's okay. She has this really big discussion about men and shame in our society in daring greatly. So I will link to that in the show notes. I think it's an important conversation for women to understand that men have vulnerabilities and insecurities too. It's not always something that's apparent, but the reason why it's not always apparent is because that's what society teaches them. And eight, if we want to reignite innovation and passion, we have to rehumanize work. When shame becomes a management style, engagement dies. When failure is not an option, we can forget about learning creativity and innovation. Creating something brand new requires the ability to be vulnerable. When we shut that down in the workplace, there's no room to grow.

She gives the example of checklists in the or and doctors who have been taught from the very beginning of their career that their self worth is linked with the ability to suture, to solve problems, to be God in other words, and to not make mistakes. Well, people who don't make mistakes don't need checklists. So creating checklists for the Orr was a lifesaving measure. It was the ability to double check your work. And if doctors were unable to become vulnerable, that innovation would not have been created and would not be saving the lives that it does. Whew. Okay. So those are the big eight concepts I wanted to share with you. I actually pared this down. I mean I could have talked all day about her work and I know that you have a day, but I highly suggest getting her books. They I just could read them all day long and reread them.

There's so much more that she offers in her writing with so much depth and with expert storytelling. She is an amazing storyteller. I highly recommend each of them and I've linked to them in the show notes. And if you're ready to begin building a foundation to bring awareness to your thoughts daily, which will bring more ease to your day, I've linked to those free audio and PDF with the 99 mantras in the show notes at dinacataldo dot com forward slash twentyeight I will update all of those links at dinacataldo.com forward slash 95 so you will have all the links to Salinas masterclass, the mantras you'll learn all about Bernay Brown impacting millions. It will all be there. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you have a fantastic day wherever you are in the world, and I will talk to you soon. Bye. Hey,

You enjoy this podcast. I offer one on one coaching using my be a better lawyer framework. That's where we rewire your brain to help you create the life and the practice that you want. Go to Dina cataldo.com to schedule a strategy session.